Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[ItMe]

Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

...Part 1!?
Are you planning additional Zenos threads?
Threads like this about other characters?
What's the "part 1" mean?

[KageTokage]

Honestly, the only thing that's keeping him remotely interesting to me is the suggestion that he might be an reincarnated Ancient like the WoL, but it remains to be seen whether or not that's actually going to be of much significance in the end.

I've only ever seen his character archetype used on disposable villains who tend to be second to the actual big bad at best, but I've largely not been disappointed by XIV's writing so far, so I'm praying they'll make it work somehow.

[Lusavari]

I'm seeing people using the word "Villain" a lot for Zeons, and yet that word just does not fit. Think on the names of his original blades. The Storm and The Swell. Calling Zenos a villain is the same as calling a hurricane a villain. It just doesn't make sense because that's not what he is. In story telling, he falls more on the lines of "Man Against Nature" than "Man Against Man." Zenos is a Force of Nature. While he may be a person, he functions more as a natural force that doesn't have motivations or reasons to do what it does. It just happens. If you change your perspective, he becomes much more interesting. If you're trying to find a reason for him to be evil, it doesn't exist. He doesn't need to be an evil villain to be an antagonist, which is just a force obstructing the hero in their journey. And he also serves to challenge you to become stronger to deal with bigger things.

[waifugenerator]

I think our dynamic with Zenos interesting and I'm looking forward to see how our showdown plays out. Interesting that Yoshi-P made an effort to emphasize that Zenos sincerely believes us to be his friend during the announcement showcase

[Vyrerus]

I'ma get Socratic up in this bish! About Zenos, of all things.

After The Revelation Zenos was Alive

Saw it coming. There's no way they'd have a character like this kill himself for no reason. Like us, he gets up after being knocked down. Our foil, to a T. It'll be interesting to see what comes of this.


Through 5.0

Well, I wasn't expecting him to kill the Emperor, but I suppose someone or something had to completely stop the empire from wanting to produce Black Rose. Estinien and Gaius did a good job, but the Garleans were ever a step ahead, creating more manufacturing plants for the stuff. Zenos is kind a Bizarro Superman, in that he's an unstoppable lynchpin they can have do anything, but for the antagonists. This is calculated.

5.1 to present

Hmm, so even an Unsundered Ascian that's part and parcel Zodiark cannot fully emulate Zenos's power. I guess that makes sense. This is the guy who casually superseded the will of Shinryu, a primal so powerful that even the Omega Weapon had to use the most powerful gun in its arsenal to subdue it. Don't think for a nano second that I missed the comparison of calling us a beast and referring to Zenos's strength as that of a beast's. Even in passing comments they bring the foil relationship about.

Hmm, White Dun Scaith robed Ascian huh. Well at least he's got good taste in garments. Will he subvert Zenos as Kefka did Gestahl, or will he play the role of dedicated lieutenant until he gets the spectacular death he so desires? He considers Zenos an equal or better, worthy of granting him death... hmm.

Zenos is off to get a new weapon. Job change? His Dissidia katanas(Susano and Shinryu)? Hmm... people say a scythe is leaned against his throne, and they may be right, but is it his? Will he become a "beast" hunter? He did like to call us beast, afterall.

What I'm thinking/is Zenos worthy to be big bad?

By power level, yeah, he's worth being the big bad. There's literally nothing that we know of that's stronger than him on The Source. Death has only improved him, by making him fully aware of his Resonant Echo capabilities. As we've seen, others in the Empire have used the Resonant tech, namely Misjia. This also provides an in, to tie other NPCs back into the story, such as Fordola(and her lover boy Arenvald). It could obviously still go either way, with him being the end all be all, with Fandaniel as his vehicle, or he could be the penultimate challenge. I know most people are very vocal about their dislike of Zenos as a character, but I've really enjoyed the foil aspect of him as the unstoppable antagonist. He's everything we are in strength, and makes us look at a side of ourselves that we don't like to talk about at parties. We like violence. This is a game that revolves around it.

I also sort of see it as the developer's/writer's pride. Not that Zenos is the best character they've ever written or anything, but that they've heard the responses to him. I think they're going to go all out to turn around opinion on him. I think the entire FFXIV staff is chock full of suckers for redemption arcs. Not redemption of morality, but of the quality of their product. If they succeed it will spark up every past scene as delayed brilliance. It's a tall order, I know, but I think that's what they're trying to do.

[MrThinker]

I think the entire FFXIV staff is chock full of suckers for redemption arcs. Not redemption of morality, but of the quality of their product. If they succeed it will spark up every past scene as delayed brilliance. It's a tall order, I know, but I think that's what they're trying to do.

Looks back at the 1.0 -2.0 transition

Yeah, this seems about right.

[Mahoukenshi]

I have a double-standardish opinion, in that I hate traits about Zenos, which I however won't mind with the WoL.
Zenos reminds me power-level-wise of Sasuke post-timeskip, who got every power-up shoved in his rektum with litte or no effort. Zenos is similar in the super-talented genius who needs to put no effort into anything and got Ascian power shoved behind his lazy rektum. Again, you don't need to remind me that the WoL has also many Gender-Stue characteristics (and plot armor). His whole antagonis role consists of being bored and doing nothing or being a creep with a WoL fetish (muh friend). The whole power level differennce between non-WoL and WoL to garner his "interest" was a whole eyerolling cliché. He doesn't need to be like Emet with the "feels bad" vibe afterwards or a deep background, but more reactions than a neandertaler.

[EaraGrace]

I think it’s no coincidence that we’re going to Garlemald precisely when the origin, backstory, creation, etc. of Zenos is suddenly important to the MSQ. While Garlemald was always gonna be important, the fact we’ll have seemingly easy access to whatever skeletons are in the Garleans closets (seeing as how the whole place is a ruin) makes me think we’re in for a nice, plot-twisting reveal. I don’t think whatever they’re revealing will “redeem” Zenos in any form, but it will definitely give us more context on who he is and why he’s doing the things he’s doing. Both of which have been simplistic so far.

[Mieck]

For a long time, I was thinking along the lines of "Zenos is Fandaniel's useful idiot". If Fandaniel plays to Zenos's one obsession and proclaims he will grant Zenos the chance of that longed-for rematch, then Zenos gives Fandaniel the cover to get on with his actual plan.
And there could still be a bit of that, but I think an event has turned Fandaniel's mission somewhat. I also think that this whole thing fundamentally rests on another Ascian plot, set in motion a long time ago. As Emet says, they scheme every hour of every day, so it would make sense for them to set up lots of plans, most of which probably never come to fruition.

I had a chat with an FC friend about this, and the whole thing started with a few facts.

- Emet-Selch (as Solus) carefully orchestrated his "death", which ensured the Garlean Empire fell into civil war.
- He deliberately did not name a successor, which led to the battle over the throne - a battle which Varis eventually won.
- Varis's very first act as emperor was to name his son - Zenos - as crown prince. He was not prepared to let the Empire fall to the same chaos once again.
- Emet-Selch (as an ascian, operating on the First some years after the Flood of Light had been halted, but before Eulmore had given up the fight against the Sin Eaters, approached the then leader of Eulmore and proposed to fuse Sin Eater with his wife's as yet unborn son, thus creating the hybrid Vauthry.

So, those are established facts, and my speculation follows;

Emet / Solus ensured the chaos after his death was so bad that it would lead to Varis wanting to shore up the line of succession. Using techniques he had already employed on the First to create Vauthry, he did (or had already done) something similar (?) to an unborn Zenos. The chaos of Solus's death was designed to lead eventually to Zenos becoming emperor. Varis was only ever intended to be a stop-gap, if he even took the throne at all.

Supporting this line of speculation is Fandaniel's pondering, uttered immediately after finding out that Zenos dreams of the Final Days.

Indeed... Could Emet-Selch have found a way...? Precious few possess memories of the Final Days.

This revelation has maybe shifted Fandaniel’s plan?


Associated fragments of speculation: whatever it was that Emet did to Zenos was also a factor in Elidibus deciding to use his corpse following the Battle of Ala Mhigo. Upon Zenos’s death, the Ascians could have viewed this as a scheme thwarted, and therefore try and make some additonal use from a failed asset, but they don’t much care because they have plenty of them in play. Elidibus, at the very least, had no knowledge of the Resonant project – or not enough – and did not expect the corpse’s previous owner coming back for it.

[SpiralMask]

my personal thoughts on zenos are that he's too Flat (as in Flat Arc the storytelling mechanic, not as an insult) to really serve as all that compelling a villain for the next expansion, and fandaniel (omnicidal/suicidal, refuses to interact at all outside of those capacities so there's nothing more to really get from him aside from the world getting worse as his actions continue) even less so.
especially after the one-two that was emet-selch (top-tier sympathetic/understandable villain) and elidibus (a mirrored/inverted player). zenos' arc basically wrapped itself up very nicely in stormblood, and he's just been lurking around overstaying his welcome since.

the only thing that'd make it worse would be that his goal of us both juicing ourselves up on the two elder-primals and duking it out backfires and he gets possessed by zodiark's now-heartless will, basically becoming a character that we neither know nor care about just for the sake of mechanical challenge/every FF's obligatory "giant space flea from nowhere" final ultimate boss fight.