Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[Dragonkat]

That's chilling and sad and I hope SQEX sees this as their wakeup call, but my question wasn't about bots so I'm struggling to understand how this relates.
I know I'm being a little confusing as I am posting this tangent on a thread about bots. But I tried asking a general question about the markets.

Suggested reading though to be fair this is a tangent too more bot related.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...or_the_games/?

The two are intertwined though as bots are in most cases hyper inflating items like 300K for an aesthete ring of crafting (Stupid high and bad) Legit crafters trying to compete to a reasonable price will have to basically bell camp as the bots will every few minutes undercut them by a couple gil (time sink, so bad for them as they do not have infinite time, unlike a scripted bot) And depending on the scripting the bot may undercut to a point where the time needed to make the item is not worth the gain you make, or basically go so low you crash the market (worst)

And any attempt by players to crash a market on purpose defeats the whole goal. We aren't competing against each other in true "market pvp" to reach a fair price. we're trying to drive artificial inflation off the MB, and it's a futile cause to do so via the MB. You can't crash a market because the bots in 10 man crafter FC's will just rebound much faster than any player can. So at best you might make a dent for a day in pricing, provided again the players don't buy that ring at 49,995 instead of 50,000.

AND! (big AND!) here's the part where i honestly feel like joyjoya does not get it. The inflated prices fuel the need for RMT. But at he same time the gil that funds RMT coffers is the eventual sales when we try to undercut bots or other players paying out the rear for overpriced gear.

Banning an RMT spammer is pointless because the gil still exists off on another account. Banning the gil at the source would solve the problem because then the sellers wouldn't have any. That's why this if it doesn't bother me it's not a big deal look on life drives me up the wall.

Granted Ishgard made this that much harder, since now leveling an omni is nowhere near the time sink it was back in ARR when i made my first million off amethyst rings of all things. But we need to start somewhere or we may as well just pack it in and only craft for friends. Cause right now the MB is a lost cause that SQ needs to address, and imo?

NAMES NEED TO BE NAMED

The fact botters get to hide behind that rule too and trying to call them out just gets the accusers banned is another 500lb fat chocobo that needs to be dealt with too. More so when you can basically present them with mountains of evidence and the STF does NOTHING. It keeps them from being pressured to admit how large a problem it really has become.

[Kes13a]

its official, SE condones cheating and RMT bots.

in their opinion, opening up world travel had no negative effects (except for making it far easier for botters gaining money across a data center to operate)

[Dragonkat]

Data center travel....

RIP JP markets. But maybe it'll get the STF off their butts when it's their markets getting bot spammed.

[Prrringles]

There are far more players who are buyers than who are sellers.

You'd be very incorrect in assuming most players have plenty of gil to buy anything they want at any price. Most don't dozens of hours to play each week and the content they're doing in those few hours don't reward that much gil. The rich players like you and I who can afford anything we want (assuming it's available for purchase) are a small minority.

I'm a crafter. I still profit off what I craft to sell. As long as my costs are covered and I get a bit extra on top, I'm good. It all adds up quickly when you're not spending it.

When Kes talked about trying to flood the market to compete against the bots, I took a look at my local market board prices and saw I could make the majority of Exarchic gear for about 50k if I bought the mats off the MB or less if I gathered myself (I'm flooded with tomestone mats thanks to all the hunt trains I do). So I could be selling Exarchic for 50-60k and still turn a profit if I wanted. Wouldn't make sense to, of course - there are other items that sell for more and cost less to make. That's why I make those other items instead.

Ofc there are more buyers than sellers. What if the "few" sellers decided to stop crafting and selling huh? You think the buyers would be happy buying from bots selling at inflated prices? Cos that's what's going to happen. And to your last point, go ahead and sell at "normal" prices. Be my guest and play the "1 gil undercut game" with the bots. I don't have time nor the energy for that. So when I craft and sell I rather dump it at low prices so I can make a quick buck in the least amount of time possible (which is good for the market right? Buyers rejoice).

No matter how you look at it, bots are BAD for the market/economy. Without bots;
- I would not have to dump truck loads of items for basically free.
- I would not even have to craft truck loads of items.
- I would not have to update my retainers every 5min because the bot script keeps running 24/7.
- I would not have to come to the forums and complain about trivial things.
- And so on

[ItMe]

Suggested reading

That was a good read. Thank you.

No matter how you look at it, bots are BAD for the market/economy.

I agree and I don't think anyone is arguing against you.

[Kes13a]

Data center travel....

RIP JP markets. But maybe it'll get the STF off their butts when it's their markets getting bot spammed.

yeah, not going to hold my breath on the STF doing anything.

if SE does anything, will be to restrict travel to the JPN data center.. then they dont have to do anything about bots and RMT rings

[Kes13a]

I really just shake my head...

one of the crafting/market bots on Zalera is ranked in the top 12 fc's. they have 9 people, 8 of those people are running retainers at market bells and having leveled in... months.
the fc leader rarely leaves their apartment and given how high they rank, and how much gear they churn out, obviously crafts 24/7

how is it that doesnt raise ANY flags at SE. I crafts daily, the fc has many active leveling members... and we are nowhere near that.

I dont get it.

[Jojoya]

Ofc there are more buyers than sellers. What if the "few" sellers decided to stop crafting and selling huh?

Except there will always be new sellers to appear to those who want to buy. That's our capitalist society - a seller will always appear when there is some profit, small or large, to be made.

Why do you think gaming can't get rid of bots and RMT? It's because they keep going after the bots instead of going after those who benefit from using those services.

You could take a step back and look at logical responses to your points.

Why are you trying to deal in those items if you're practically giving them away for free when you could be choosing other items that yield a greater profit? There absolutely are underserved areas of the market board that will generate steady, though not grossly exaggerated, profits.

Why are you crafting truck loads of items at all?

Why are you updating your retainers every 5 minutes instead of sitting tight at your preferred price when all that does is get those running the price adjustment scripts to lower prices even more?

Why are you coming to the forums to complain about something you feel is trivial?

I really just shake my head...

one of the crafting/market bots on Zalera is ranked in the top 12 fc's. they have 9 people, 8 of those people are running retainers at market bells and having leveled in... months.
the fc leader rarely leaves their apartment and given how high they rank, and how much gear they churn out, obviously crafts 24/7

how is it that doesnt raise ANY flags at SE. I crafts daily, the fc has many active leveling members... and we are nowhere near that.

I dont get it.

Why would that raise red flags? Crafting Expert and level 80 Master recipes generates a disproportionately large number of company credits compared to the amount generated by doing most other content. Turning in crafted gear (esp HQ), dungeon drops and tomestone gear (the higher the ilvl the better) for GC seals also generates large amounts of company credits. The number of credits generated by doing quests is insignificant in comparison.

Every time I go on a major crafting binge, our FC will shoot up somewhere between 6th and 12th place where we're normally in the 30s-40s. It doesn't take all that much to get near the top on lower pop worlds (by NA standards) like Coeurl and Zalera.

A FC's ranking isn't going to raise red flags. The individual ranking of a player might. Not trying to say the player you're referring to is or is not botting, just that the criteria you're using isn't proof of anything.

[Prrringles]

...

Yeah thanks for the tips. I'm a crafter since it became a thing and have multiple gil caps so I can hold my own, thanks. To most of your questions: Because it works for me. No one buys my items if I set a price and leave it collect dust on my retainers. Bots undercut too frequent. Im not going to explain the obvious. It works for me in this bot controlled market. Period.

And the reason I come to the forum is because I care about other people losing interest in the game because of bots. I don't think this is trivial, but it should be. Bots should never have been a thing here if SE was more vigilent. I mean the JP servers are pretty clean.. why is that? Why can the STF keep their own backyard clean but not ours?

By the way, you never contribute anything to the cause here. All you do is argue and trying to discredit everyone here. I mean, look at your post counter. You reply on everything that gets posted on this forum. If you don't agree with something, post it, and move on. We can manage without you, thanks.

[ItMe]

I mean the JP servers are pretty clean.. why is that? Why can the STF keep their own backyard clean but not ours?

Are they clean?
I've heard this on these forums a few times but haven't been able to find anything about it (maybe because I only read basic Japanese lol).
I came from Tonberry (a JP server) and can assure you the bots were pretty ugly there too.
Why do people think those servers are clean?
Is this a "the grass is greener" sorta situation?
Or is there something behind this mentality?
Anyone got, like, stats or something?

By the way, you never contribute anything to the cause here. All you do is argue and trying to discredit everyone here. I mean, look at your post counter. You reply on everything that gets posted on this forum. If you don't agree with something, post it, and move on. We can manage without you, thanks.

This is just as unconstructive as you claim they're being.

Also, are we reading the same posts?
Jojoya is helpful, heck rereading the last few pages of this thread alone pretty much every post was about trying to clear something up or strike towards the heart of the tangent I started.
I find Jojoya's perspective helpful, and while they can be involved in arguments (we all can, especially with conversations about FF14's housing and markets) they're far from argumentative.

And careful when calling someone out like this. Its skirting close to the kinds of comments we've seen people get banned for.