All Bozja content should be easy and the raids should be a roulette w/ big rewards.

[ForteNightshade]

Tbf I actually liked the "free" relics. Call me crazy but I like that there was a weapon option for the classes that I don't play often enough that I can justify spending gil on a crafted weapon. I'm sure that many casual players who only logged on to play occasionally also felt the same way about having an easy to get catch-up weapon.

I think that a lot of people who want the relics to be hard to get because they're gated by more difficult content forget that elitism comes at the cost of the enjoyment of the average "casual" player. Especially in the case of suddenly gatekeeping previously casual friendly items like the Bozja relics.

It isn't elitism to ask what will become the best weapon this expansion to require more than "roll your face across your keyboard". Your easy catch up weapon for alt jobs is crafted, Tome or Primal. All three are more than adequate, especially for jobs you admittedly aren't going to play often. The crafted weapons alone are vastly overpowered for any content outside Savage or Ultimate. And come 5.5, the crafted weapons can all be augmented to i520 for practically nothing. That is the casual option.

The issue is they added harder content without offering justifiable rewards for completing it. Obtaining the Augmented Judge sets are absurd, and the relics themselves are inconsistent mess when it comes to farming for all the drops. They need to better incentivize Bozja while also adding more additional methods outside of it that aren't also the most efficient option.

[Tint]

It isn't elitism to ask what will become the best weapon this expansion to require more than "roll your face across your keyboard". Your easy catch up weapon for alt jobs is crafted, Tome or Primal. All three are more than adequate, especially for jobs you admittedly aren't going to play often. The crafted weapons alone are vastly overpowered for any content outside Savage or Ultimate. And come 5.5, the crafted weapons can all be augmented to i520 for practically nothing. That is the casual option.

Yes and the ex primal / savage raid / ultimate raid are the hardcore options. Just leave the relic alone please, I love easy faceroll content wich I can grind for hours.
(Well, I still hate Bozja. Grinding dungeons in ARR and HW was much more fun)

I don't like difficult content. But I want something to do. Running expert roulette 5 times a week and get a weapon as a reward doesn't keep me entertained.

[Juzjuzz]

Yes and the ex primal / savage raid / ultimate raid are the hardcore options. Just leave the relic alone please, I love easy faceroll content wich I can grind for hours.
(Well, I still hate Bozja. Grinding dungeons in ARR and HW was much more fun)

I don't like difficult content. But I want something to do. Running expert roulette 5 times a week and get a weapon as a reward doesn't keep me entertained.

It takes 8 clears to farm a Savage weapon (if you are unlucky). Outside of that, there's very few reasons to continue playing in Savage. Content from previous patches is dead, no one wants to go there and most Savage players just go to the new raids. Trying to do e1s-e8s in pf will make you wait hours for maybe 1 run and ppl might stop.

Extreme is still alive thanks to mounts, but if you don't like to do them 99x times (if you are unlucky), it's not worth it.10 clears for the weapons btw and getting the most recent raid is again the best thing to do.

Some players will gladly take relics as an excuse to go into Savage or extreme again. The only thing needed is a reward worth the effort.

I'd like to see the relics guive some options to everyone tbh.

[Dogempire]

It isn't elitism to ask what will become the best weapon this expansion to require more than "roll your face across your keyboard". Your easy catch up weapon for alt jobs is crafted, Tome or Primal. All three are more than adequate, especially for jobs you admittedly aren't going to play often. The crafted weapons alone are vastly overpowered for any content outside Savage or Ultimate. And come 5.5, the crafted weapons can all be augmented to i520 for practically nothing. That is the casual option.

The issue is they added harder content without offering justifiable rewards for completing it. Obtaining the Augmented Judge sets are absurd, and the relics themselves are inconsistent mess when it comes to farming for all the drops. They need to better incentivize Bozja while also adding more additional methods outside of it that aren't also the most efficient option.

It's not elitism to make relics hard to get, yes.

It is elitism to take an easy to farm weapon that the good majority of the active player base probably had at least 1 copy of, suddenly lock it behind a skill wall and a time sink that the vast majority of the player base doesn't want to do, and then tell the complainers "too bad" whenever they say that it's not right for them to do that.

If the relic was tied to Bozja so that you needed to do Bozja to progress it from the start, then that would be fair. But SE in their infinite wisdom couldn't even add a step that required you to at least farm some fates and CE's and then they required Castrum and the new 24 man then sure, that would be fair and we would have less reason to complain, but unless you're just terrible at time management or like Bozja anyone who values their time will go farm HW fates and run dungeons instead of dealing with Bozja rng.

[TaleraRistain]

It isn't elitism to ask what will become the best weapon this expansion to require more than "roll your face across your keyboard". Your easy catch up weapon for alt jobs is crafted, Tome or Primal. All three are more than adequate, especially for jobs you admittedly aren't going to play often. The crafted weapons alone are vastly overpowered for any content outside Savage or Ultimate. And come 5.5, the crafted weapons can all be augmented to i520 for practically nothing. That is the casual option.

You're completely incorrect. Relics are the casual answer to endgame weapons. There's even a set of interviews on another thread on this topic on these forums where Yoshi-P outright states they are intended to be able to be completed solo without mandatory party requirements. And outside of jumping in a roulette or two (which you can still do solo technically), ARR and HW stuck to that format. They required grinds and investment, but that investment wasn't in mandatory party content. The interview is about Eureka and admitting they messed up and went against the intention.

[Absurdity]

You're completely incorrect. Relics are the casual answer to endgame weapons. There's even a set of interviews on another thread on this topic on these forums where Yoshi-P outright states they are intended to be able to be completed solo without mandatory party requirements. And outside of jumping in a roulette or two (which you can still do solo technically), ARR and HW stuck to that format. They required grinds and investment, but that investment wasn't in mandatory party content. The interview is about Eureka and admitting they messed up and went against the intention.

Pretty sure atleast 3-4 stages of the HW relic required you to do party content. The difference however was that you could do them completely at your own pace, since the party content was either 4man, 8man or 24man party encounters that were either current PvE content or part of roulettes, maybe even both. It was never content with an incredibly limited lifespan that forced you to rush it or run the risk of never being able to complete it.

So, basically "say hi to roughly 5% of the community at best."

Especially since ShB the amount of people doing savage has exceeded that arbitrarily low number, but since he included people who pug extremes, old savage fights and old extremes it is certainly a lot more than 5%.

[TaleraRistain]

Pretty sure atleast 3-4 stages of the HW relic required you to do party content. The difference however was that you could do them completely at your own pace, since the party content was either 4man, 8man or 24man party encounters that were either current PvE content or part of roulettes, maybe even both. It was never content with an incredibly limited lifespan that forced you to rush it or run the risk of never being able to complete it.

Yeah I didn't really understand what he meant by saying you could solo it, unless he meant queueing for roulette solo. But it wasn't too much more demanding on that front that what MSQ asked of everyone. The last sentence is absolutely correct. You could go about your daily routines and get updates for ARR and HW. Maybe shorten things a bit with some extra grinding here and there when able to. You weren't supposed to be locked away in a special specific zone for ages unable to participate in anything else.

[Kathryn]

There is an issue with Castrum, it's not the difficulty its the fact that trying to get 48 people in a non alliance format to co ordinate a completion especially for first timers is difficult, I only play an hour and a half a night and we've tried twice in Castrum to get to the next step in the relic but the groups have never got past the first boss.

Our first time we went bottom and the top never had enough dps and wiped killing everyone then split, there went 3k mettle, Our second time (Yes we've only done this twice as its the only 2 times we've seen it in our available playtime) we went top and the bottom wiped then left..

I really have no hopes of getting my 1 relic per expansion this time round.

Before you say we have to play more we both work full time and due to the nature of our jobs we are frontline and have been working pretty much 7 days a week during the entirety of this damned pandemic, this content is just not player friendly in general and should be a roulette.

[ForteNightshade]

Alright, so how do you think MSQ would fare if they forced everyone to run it at min ilvl, added a Doom mechanic that instant kills you every couple of mistakes, and takes a large chunk of your exp every time you die; or if you're 80 it takes a percentage of your Gil? Oh, and you can randomly end up in a group without tanks or healers as well....

Let's not kid ourselves, the difficulty is definitely a big part of the problem. Savage and Ultimate are supposed to be the difficult but faster means of gear progression; Bozja and the relic are the easy but grindy alternative.

Improving the rewards SUBSTANTIALLY might be a way to fix this, but it's not a realistic one, imo.

Also, the mettle argument isn't a good one. Until we know for sure there's no new resistance ranks or mettle requirements coming, mettle is still necessary.

This comparison is so off base, you're playing football on a hockey rink.

First and foremost, Lost Actions are grossly overpowered compared to anything we can do at max level, nevermind being synced down to level 50. For reference sake, tanks can burst in their openers with the proper Lost Actions higher than Black Mage. Lost Slash on Machinist alone deals upwards of 600k, which is more than double a Crit/Direct Hit Technical Step. We are leagues above i430, and thus nowhere near a min ilvl equivalent. Likewise, your Mettle equivalent is an extremely flawed Strawman. You're assuming Mettle will have some further significant impact. Presently, it does not. And it will not until 5.55 some six months down the road. Meanwhile, EXP and Gil both have value currently. You can't compare losing either on the presumption Mettle will have equal value.

Simply put, you're making massive leaps and straight up poor comparisons while ignoring the obvious. MSQ gives a disproportionate amount of rewards as compensation for putting up with lengthy cut scenes. Like I said prior, which you ignored, when those rewards weren't present, people stopped queuing. The issue with Bozja as a whole is the reward structure.

You're completely incorrect. Relics are the casual answer to endgame weapons. There's even a set of interviews on another thread on this topic on these forums where Yoshi-P outright states they are intended to be able to be completed solo without mandatory party requirements. And outside of jumping in a roulette or two (which you can still do solo technically), ARR and HW stuck to that format. They required grinds and investment, but that investment wasn't in mandatory party content. The interview is about Eureka and admitting they messed up and went against the intention.

I'll have to ask you cite said interviews because not only does it contradict their statements from Stormblood, neither the ARR and HW relics could be completed entirely solo as dungeons were mandatory for both. Nevertheless, relics have never been targeted at the hyper casual demographic but rather made approachable for them. Their primary target is the softcore players; those who typically aren't interested in Savage but may do the odd EX here and there. Grinds like this typically don't attract casual players hence why the actual casual weapons are tome.

[Goji1639]

This comparison is so off base, you're playing football on a hockey rink.

First and foremost, Lost Actions are grossly overpowered compared to anything we can do at max level, nevermind being synced down to level 50. For reference sake, tanks can burst in their openers with the proper Lost Actions higher than Black Mage. Lost Slash on Machinist alone deals upwards of 600k, which is more than double a Crit/Direct Hit Technical Step. We are leagues above i430, and thus nowhere near a min ilvl equivalent. Likewise, your Mettle equivalent is an extremely flawed Strawman. You're assuming Mettle will have some further significant impact. Presently, it does not. And it will not until 5.55 some six months down the road. Meanwhile, EXP and Gil both have value currently. You can't compare losing either on the presumption Mettle will have equal value.

Simply put, you're making massive leaps and straight up poor comparisons while ignoring the obvious. MSQ gives a disproportionate amount of rewards as compensation for putting up with lengthy cut scenes. Like I said prior, which you ignored, when those rewards weren't present, people stopped queuing. The issue with Bozja as a whole is the reward structure.

First, lost actions are complete RNG. The only ones I had worth using by Rank 10 were some Lost Cures, and plenty of people don't bother with them all together. They're gimmicks, and peoples first instinct is usually to ignore gimmicks. People bringing and using the correct ones does obviously make the content easier, but that's not something you can rely on.

Second, the MSQ example wasn't meant to be a direct equivalent; just an easy to grasp illustration of why difficulty matters. People are NOT going to stick with difficult content in random group scenarios, because trying to coordinate to that degree with 24 random people isn't fun. DR just isn't worth dealing with, and the rewards would have to be phenomenal for people to put up with that place for any amount of time.

I already admitted that significantly improving the rewards could work, but I just don't think that's going to happen. Making the content not terrible to run with randoms is the more likely solution.