Nature of the Sound

[Veloran]

I'm ready to believe that the story had little or nothing to do with the eventual Sound-driven cataclysm. It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings). For now, though, I believe that the Phoenix episode was a hint at the origins of the Sound and the End of Days, and how even the greatest among the minds of the Ancients failed to recognize the threat before it was too late.

It's neither. The episode is summed up with this.

"Consumed by the fear of death, it thrashes blindly about. It will know only pain and suffering and inflict the same upon others. A pitiful existence."

"Such moving empathy. It's as if you wore the feathers yourself."

People keep thinking there's something untowards with the phoenix that hints to the start of the Final Days and the Ancients causing it, but the truth is the point of it was to draw a direct parallel between the bird and Emet. I don't know how it could be made more clear, considering Hythlodaeus' line.

Eventually, yeah, they turned to these desperate plans. Earlier on, though, it appears as though they were less concerned about it, hence the "debate" among the Ancient NPCs about whether Amaurot should go to the aid of the far-off suffering cities or not. Once the problem was on their doorstep, you're right, they started thinking long and deep aobut what to do. (At least, as long and deep as they could with monsters literally springing out of their heads left and right and fire falling from the sky.)

I don't really think the debate between a couple of average citizens is all that indicative of what the authorities in Amaurot like the Convocation were thinking about it at that time. Given dealing with affairs in the wider world was the primary purview of the seat of Azem, the rest of the Convocation was probably not prepared to just jump in wildly. Moreover you suggest that they should have acted sooner, but part of that debate you mention addresses that Amaurot really isn't supposed to be some saviors of the world. It's precisely that thinking, which was ultimately brought about by everyone else being wiped out, which led to 12,000 years of Calamities with the Ascians trying to reunify everyone's souls and save those who had sacrificed themselves. In fact you could say this debate was the core of the conflict between the Convocation and the Anyder, as the former took up the mantel of stewards of the star while the latter effectively stood for non-intervention beyond the point of pure survival.

[Kesey]

People keep thinking there's something untowards with the phoenix that hints to the start of the Final Days and the Ancients causing it, but the truth is the point of it was to draw a direct parallel between the bird and Emet. I don't know how it could be made more clear, considering Hythlodaeus' line.

This story doesn't draw a point between Emet and the bird. The parallel is drawn between pre- and post- sundered Emet. Emet's regard for the Phoenix is echoed in his disgust for Varis.

What they say about the Phoenix (your quote) is the exact opposite of what Phoenix is. Phoenix is a symbol of rebirth and hope. Ascians fit the description they ascribe to the Phoenix--consumed by fear of death, inflicting pain and suffering upon others, and are pitiful in existence because Ascians are so powerful they could do so much good for the world but just continue to punish them with calamities/rejoinings. The reading here is ironic because reader already knows Emet will become an Ascian and they are just terrible beings, even if we can sympathize with the hidden motivations for their actions.

[Veloran]

This story doesn't draw a point between Emet and the bird.

It clearly does. Hythlodaeus literally says "it's as if you wore the feathers yourself," that is as explicit as it's possible to describe a parallel. The phoenix in the story houses a soul filled with regrets that rages against it's death in a self-destructive struggle. This is a direct parallel to Emet and the Ascians after the Sundering, as they're destructively struggling for the rebirth of a dead world and it's people. To The Edge even calls back to this specifically with many of it's lyrics. And while we're meant to view this as tragic and regrettable, and I even think WoL is supposed to parallel Emet in this story as it's his task to end the phoenix' suffering, the intention was to paint them as pitiful yes, but not terrible. Of note is the parallel Emet himself draws, in that he describes mortals in terms akin to the phoenix, as thrashing about in their broken lives and repeating their mistakes over and over, and so we see that from his perspective his task with them is the same as with the phoenix, and yet from a greater context we also see that Emet is no different.

There are a ton of connections being drawn in the story, and I think it's too reductive just to say "he had empathy for the bird but disgust for Varis, so the point of the story is to show how he changed into a bad guy."

[Kesey]

It clearly does. Hythlodaeus literally says "it's as if you wore the feathers yourself," that is as explicit as it's possible to describe a parallel. The phoenix in the story houses a soul filled with regrets that rages against it's death in a self-destructive struggle. This is a direct parallel to Emet and the Ascians after the Sundering, as they're destructively struggling for the rebirth of a dead world and it's people. To The Edge even calls back to this specifically with many of it's lyrics. And while we're meant to view this as tragic and regrettable, and I even think WoL is supposed to parallel Emet in this story as it's his task to end the phoenix' suffering, the intention was to paint them as pitiful yes, but not terrible. Of note is the parallel Emet himself draws, in that he describes mortals in terms akin to the phoenix, as thrashing about in their broken lives and repeating their mistakes over and over, and so we see that from his perspective his task with them is the same as with the phoenix, and yet from a greater context we also see that Emet is no different.

There are a ton of connections being drawn in the story, and I think it's too reductive just to say "he had empathy for the bird but disgust for Varis, so the point of the story is to show how he changed into a bad guy."

Again, the reader is assumed to have played the game, so they know that the description ascribed to Phoenix does not fit the the Phoenix (rebirth and hope) and instead they ascribe a description that fits Ascians instead (which the reader should also have knowledge of because reading this assumes you have played the game).

And you are the one being reductive because you fail to take the conclusion one step further and not use your knowledge of Phoenix from the game.

[Veloran]

Again, the reader is assumed to have played the game, so they know that the description ascribed to Phoenix does not fit the the Phoenix (rebirth and hope) and instead they ascribe a description that fits Ascians instead (which the reader should also have knowledge of because reading this assumes you have played the game).

And you are the one being reductive because you fail to take the conclusion one step further and not use your knowledge of Phoenix from the game.

It should really go without saying that the behavior of the bird in relation to the modern idea of the phoenix is not even close to the only dynamic at play and the story and I'd argue it's certainly not among the most important comparisons we're meant to make. In fact if you want to connect it to the player's knowledge from the game, our experiences with phoenix-entities come from Louisoix and Suzaku - The former a man who was once considered a hero, but drew upon the power of a primal and became tempered, losing faith in mankind, and the latter trapped in eternal grief for the loved one she'd lost, wishing for the power to bring him back and cursing you for not living up to him.

A false hope. 'Tis folly to place one's faith in so flawed a race. "Stand together"? Hmph. They would first need to agree on which direction to face. If history teaches us anything, it is that man cannot find common ground between his own two feet.

And you! You dare think yourself his equal? His better!? Then I will put you to the proof. And when you fall, it will be a fate most deserved.

The parallels between these characters in these situations and Emet should be obvious. If you want to focus on the phoenix as seen through the player's experiences in-game, that just further deepens these themes tying back to Emet even more. In every circumstance with a "phoenix" thus far, "rebirth and hope" is in fact something someone else must bring to the phoenix, first Emet to the bird, then WoL to Louisoix, Suzaku, and Emet himself. I hadn't considered these connections previously, but now they seem as intentional as can be considering the storyline.

[Kesey]

It should really go without saying that the behavior of the bird in relation to the modern idea of the phoenix is not even close to the only dynamic at play and the story and I'd argue it's certainly not among the most important comparisons we're meant to make. In fact if you want to connect it to the player's knowledge from the game, our experiences with phoenix-entities come from Louisoix and Suzaku - The former a man who was once considered a hero, but drew upon the power of a primal and became tempered, losing faith in mankind, and the latter trapped in eternal grief for the loved one she'd lost, wishing for the power to bring him back and cursing you for not living up to him.




The parallels between these characters in these situations and Emet should be obvious. If you want to focus on the phoenix as seen through the player's experiences in-game, that just further deepens these themes tying back to Emet even more. In every circumstance with a "phoenix" thus far, "rebirth and hope" is in fact something someone else must bring to the phoenix, first Emet to the bird, then WoL to Louisoix, Suzaku, and Emet himself. I hadn't considered these connections previously, but now they seem as intentional as can be considering the storyline.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I agreed with you and was taking your explanation one step further.

[Veloran]

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I agreed with you and was taking your explanation one step further.

I don't exactly agree that those explanations and interpretations are the same thing...