Is their a DPS job, thats perfect that way it is?

[Rika007]

To me you can break it down into tiers (all of this is IMO):

Perfection:

Black Mage- I honestly am scared of what the next expansion brings for Black Mage. It is without a doubt one of the best designed jobs the devteam has ever produced, right up there with Stormblood Bard and Paladin, and current Gunbreaker. It's got that rare trait of being easy to learn, hard to master, that nails it both from a casual perspective and a hardcore players perspective, all while also being true to the job fantasy. In the hands of a master player it can be as mobile as any other caster while bringing damage in a way no other job can. I can't see how anything else could be added to it's rotation without massively messing it up.

Almost perfection:

Samurai and Dragoon- A few little frustrations on the rotations of both jobs stop each job from reaching Black Mage level Nirvana, but they are so close that I can't find fault in them. Both nail there job fantasy and are an absolute blast to play.

Good starting points for more:

Red Mage, Machinist, Ninja, Dancer, Monk- All of these jobs to me are at a level where the rotation is in a perfect place for some new stuff to be added to expand on its current mechanics to really spice up the job for the upper level player. Be it adding a DoT to the rotation (would love to see this on Red Mage or Dancer), or maybe a new consistent buff to keep monitoring(once again on red mage or Machinist here, to really amp up there damage), or an existing function to be expanded upon (red mage's melee combo, dancers espirit gauge, Monk's chakra system), all of them in some way have a great basic core to work off, but could use something a bit more for upper level players to really flex on and sink there teeth into. Monk was a late add to this, it's current rework was needed, but it did leave the job feeling pretty bare, and I personally feel the Chakra system could be where they sink some time into.

Just a mess:

Summoner and Bard: It saddens me because coming out of Stormblood I felt these were two of the best jobs in the DPS category in terms of playability, and were also my two favorite to play. But Shadowbringers put them through the ringer. Thank god for Black Mage and Gunbreaker, or I honestly would have had a very negative perception about the game overall. Both jobs are really a mess but in two different ways, both centered around an identity issue that walks too many lines.

For Bard the core rotation is absolutely fine, but the execution of it's extra mechanics along with the meeting the job fantasy is a total mess. A job that's whole identity is based around supporting your allies, and I would say outside of MCH, BLM and SAM, every other job in the game feels far more supportive than Bard due to its nearly non-existent support kit, especially when compared to it's previous iterations. Add in issues with missed procs, the terrible application and downtime of Army's Peon/Muse, and the awful timing and alignment of Apex Arrow (and finally the dismal state of Ranged DPS damage overall), and you got a job that went from one of the most loved to now is one of the least played in Savage. There is so much to work on here, and I eagerly wait to see how the devs handle it. The job doesn't need a top down rework like Monk did and Summoner does, but it does need to have multiple parts of it's kit and mechanics worked on to both fit better and add onto it's bare options.

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

[Rymi64]

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

What would you have them doing in-between trances? Personally i feel like if they made every one of your regular summons a demi it would diminish the oomf of bahaumut and phoenix. Unless you mean they should just use the demi way of attacking for egi's as well then that could work.

I feel like dancer is amazing with where it is and could use just a few extra things like sabre dance extending your flourishes. Dragoon and ninja also feel amazing to play and really nail down.

[Raikai]

Summoner on the other hand does need a full reworking, and part of the issue is Summoner players are split on how they want it to happen. Some want the pet completely gone, some want dots to be gone, some want the pet reworked entirely, some want Aetherflow to go (and a very small amount don't like the Demi-summons, but we don't talk about them). Summoner's damage and meta placement is more then fine, hell if anything even after several nerfs it's still a monster, but the issue is most raiders only play it because it's a monster. Take away its obscene damage output on top of mobility and support and most save the die hards would immediately drop the job in favor of Red or Black Mage. Putting up with the Egi and Demi's that ghost moves and bleed damage, on top of an opener that even post rework requires you to play flight of the bumble bee while every other dps plays twinkle twinkle little star, dealing with multiple job mechanics that do not work in harmony, all on top of the absolute strictest DPS rotation in the game only feels worth if you are bringing the damage. I personally am on the train of removing Egi's completely from the top level rotation, turning them into lower level stand ins for the Demi's so that Summoners leveling experience fits better. Then merging Bahamut with Dreadwyrm trance so it functions similar to Pheonix and Firebird trance, along with finally making it so that the Demi's no longer follow you around and instead stay in the spot you summoned them.

I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

[Rymi64]

I think the actual issue is not the players, but the developers still not having a clue on where the Summoner is going for the past 2 expansions, because they are in this odd middle point as they are no longer a fully functional pet job (and by that I mean with what means to manage a pet), but they didn't go all the way to the opposite direction.

And the root of SMN's problems appears to be actually beyond design, but the game code not allowing a fluid gameplay with pets. Unless 6.0 brings an overhaul in the code structure (what is the likeness of that to happen?) I honestly think that Egis are going to probably be just a cosmetic feature and Summoners will fully embrace Trance rotation, ending just with a big flashy spell in the form of the Demi summon coming and unleashing their signature move.

Same reason why I think Beastmaster will probably come as a Limited Job, because being outside of mainstream content, they can cope with the clunky pet interactibility, especially if it's solo play. Heck, I'd even go further and say that BST pet combat will be a separate feature on its own.

I don't think the egis are gonna go to a purely cosmetic feature, they made new ways to have "pets" in shb so i think they will use those new features next expansion. Though i will say SB was the best iteration of smn hands down. Everything just flowed fluidly and was fun to optimize while not being as strict as it is now.

I also think they are gonna just use the old pet coding for beast master going off how they fight in bozja. Having hp bars for the beasts would make sense if they were trying to capture the feeling of 11 BST. Same reason why i think it'll have the colosseum match's as well (as much as i wish it not to be so and for it to be full job but c'est La Vie).