MSQ Needs Further Condensing

[Reyketi]

In most single player Final Fantasy games, if a particular character annoyed me for whatever reason, I could usually shelve them outside of mandatory plot relevant events. I didn't use Quina in FFIX and I wasn't forced to outside of rare occasions. I didn't like Vaan in FFXII, so I ran with Basch, Ashe and Balthier when the game allowed me to do so.

In the end, the busywork of fetch quests has simply been replaced by the busywork of spending time with specific characters. It'd be fine if it was less biased, though I don't care for either Alisae or G'raha and recent patches have forced my character to interact with them when I do not wish to in ways that aren't even relevant to the overall plot. In fact, we're stuck playing babysitter at points where I'd much rather go digging for information.

I don't dislike all of the characters, but I must say, generally, I do not care about them, in any capacity.

Final Fantasy XIV could use a soft-reboot, with the addition of new characters, replacing old ones, or improving upon the ones currently presented in the MSQ, in my opinion.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

[Garnix]

Final Fantasy XIV could use a soft-reboot, with the addition of new characters, replacing old ones, or improving upon the ones currently presented in the MSQ, in my opinion.

In FFXIV terms, that's simply called an expansion.

[GeminiReed]

I mean while you could be right, they condensed one section that has been complained about for a very long time, nothing else, anywhere else and in addition added more to the MSQ at the same time, so it hasn't really set anything, they've also made no mention about doing it anywhere else. They noted 2.0-.5 has been a problem for some and addressed it, that hardly means they'll do anything else and using your logic of this one instance setting some kind of trend, I guess each of these "streamlines" will also make something optional mandatory as well the "president" has been set.

Let's call it metrics myopia if you will. It's what happens when you treat the symptom instead of diagnosing the root cause. They've identified a certain point where their metrics told them a significant amount of subscribers gave up. The question is why did they give up? Did they give up because ARR badly needed a QoL pass or is there a deeper complaint (I have to spend how much time before I can play with my friends?)

Of course I think they missed the mark. Or in my more charitable moods think perhaps they were being conservative. Either way they have a lot more work to do to make it palatable to those that consider story grinds a chore. They can shrug and say we don't need those subs but somebody thought chasing them was important enough to divert developer resources. I'm not convinced they have that freedom.

[BlitzAceRush]

Let's call it metrics myopia if you will. It's what happens when you treat the symptom instead of diagnosing the root cause. They've identified a certain point where their metrics told them a significant amount of subscribers gave up. The question is why did they give up? Did they give up because ARR badly needed a QoL pass or is there a deeper complaint (I have to spend how much time before I can play with my friends?)

Of course I think they missed the mark. Or in my more charitable moods think perhaps they were being conservative. Either way they have a lot more work to do to make it palatable to those that consider story grinds a chore. They can shrug and say we don't need those subs but somebody thought chasing them was important enough to divert developer resources. I'm not convinced they have that freedom.

You say all that, but it took them how long to touch one part of the story? Again a single part that has been complained about since 3.0 dropped, while I personally had no issues with the post ARR stuff, I can see why some would, it was abnormally long compared to how they've done things since.

I'm just not seeing this link between dealing with a single trouble spot equating to them going through the whole MSQ to prune or making it optional, they delt with the sticking out nail so to speak, beyond a near universal trouble area a lot of these complaints are subjective, different people will find different things filler vs not needed vs can be cut, as Theodric stated, he'd be happy if they cut out bonding time with the characters he's not fond of, others would like that to stay and even less bonding time with the characters he likes, some would be happy with the story moving from beat to beat with no downtime, no "filler" others would hate it, they can't please everyone and as the game is doing fine there's little reason to make radical changes.

At the end of the day, the skips cover the ground if someone really doesn't want to play through the MSQ, could they offer it for free? Sure but there's no guarantee all the people who skip would just magically stay after either.

Funny thing is, WoW is doing the opposite now, you HAVE to beat Shadowlands campaign to unlock endgame, so they're now pulling a 14 while people are asking 14 to pull a WoW.

[SturmChurro]

Asinine. There are plenty of people that skip to the current era, find out the story is actually pretty cool, and go back and catch up storywise.

Furthermore, when 2.0 launched the length of the MSQ was reasonable. It's now pretty much eight times longer, and it's slated to increase to nine when the new expansion drops.

That is too long to expect a new player to sit through before they get to the "good part." And yes, gameplay-wise, it takes that long to get to content that isn't nerfed intentionally or unintentionally by class changes over the years or too-generous stat sync.

It's extremely easy to lose perspective on just how long the MSQ is if you've kept up with it for a while. I don't say we should just dump people at the endgame, but there needs to be a way onboard players faster so they get to the "real" game within 30-40 hours that isn't a lazy copout of just skipping players with a potion.

A trilogy of books with an amazing ending isn't an amazing trilogy if most people can't suffer through to the end. The same concept applies to the MSQ, even though this is an MMO. Story is story, and a well-told story cannot be a well-told story if it overstays its welcome.

Abridgment for new players is mandatory with a story this long. Keep the full-length scenario in New Game+.

Yes. As more expansions and updates arrive, the time it will take to actually get to current relevant content will only get longer and longer. Without them, yes, condensing the previous MSQ, or alleviating this issue in some way or other. I do not think, "just buy a skip" is a good alternative.

100+ hours is an extremely lengthy period of time, to actually play "content" with your friends. I don't care what some people's opinions are on the subject of endgame, or the story. As it stands, it is just too lengthy (even if you skip dialogue), It's a roadblock for new players trying to get into the game. This isn't some complete single-player experience where you can spend 30-50 hours, and you are done. This is an ongoing subscription based mmorpg. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Also. even single-player games notice a dropoff of players when the story is very lengthy, for that matter.

[Reyketi]

Yes. As more expansions and updates arrive, the time it will take to actually get to current relevant content will only get longer and longer. Without them, yes, condensing the previous MSQ, or alleviating this issue in some way or other. I do not think, "just buy a skip" is a good alternative.

100+ hours is an extremely lengthy period of time, to actually play "content" with your friends. I don't care what some people's opinions are on the subject of endgame, or the story. As it stands, it is just too lengthy (even if you skip dialogue), It's a roadblock for new players trying to get into the game. This isn't some complete single-player experience where you can spend 30-50 hours, and you are done. This is an ongoing subscription based mmorpg. There has to be a better way of doing this.

Also. even single-player games notice a dropoff of players when the story is very lengthy, for that matter.

Grind through 100-250 hours of story vs skip all cutscenes, and do quests like a rat in a skinner box, or pay $115

OR

condense the MSQ

:S

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

[Ammokkx]

Grind through 100-250 hours of story vs skip all cutscenes, and do quests like a rat in a skinner box, or pay $115

OR

condense the MSQ

You say this as if "just condense the MSQ" is some kind of simple undertaking itself.

Point me to the stuff that you can condense, go on, I'll wait.

Do you want to cut out helping house Fortemps? Then it makes no real sense anyone in Ishgard takes you seriously, as at that point you're no better than refugees.

Cut out parts of the Azim Steppe storyline? Then the final confrontation where it's an all-out brawl right before turning the full might of the Steppe on Garlemald really doesn't feel like it pays off.

Cut down on post ARR content? They did that, and people are already saying the Crystal Braves storyline is rushed now.

Cut down on the moogle chores? Mate, it's like 4 quests with no cutscenes. Really not that much time saved.

Take out cleaning Master Matoya's room? Kinda loses the whole "Yeah we're leaving this place" vibe they were going for.

Give actual examples instead of just going "condense MSQ" because you're not giving any useful insights into the situation. You're not proposing a solution to your own problem, you're just pretending you are.

[Moomba33]

I'd personally prefer that they don't cut down the MSQ any more than they have already. We already lost some quests I liked in the previous trim (like the one where you save Miner Tataru from the Malboro) and I'd rather not lose any more.

Edit: I understand that not all new players will appreciate going through so much content to reach the current endgame. I'd be ok with SE giving free boosts with expack purchases for those who really don't care at all. But I also think it's ok if this game doesn't appeal to everyone. I like that it has a long story to enjoy.

[Reyketi]

You say this as if "just condense the MSQ" is some kind of simple undertaking itself.

Point me to the stuff that you can condense, go on, I'll wait.

Give actual examples instead of just going "condense MSQ" because you're not giving any useful insights into the situation. You're not proposing a solution to your own problem, you're just pretending you are.

Try going back, and reading my post.

Possible Solution Proposal


Introduce a new metric: Time-To-Cap (TTC) (Level 1 to max level)

Standardize the time is takes to reach level cap.

Apply this to every expansion that increases the level cap.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing, and cutscenes (perhaps still frames, with narration) bridging the gaps.

Of course, this should be OPTIONAL, thus allowing players to level in the manner of which they choose.

Unabridged, and abridged.

The Unabridged MSQ condensing nothing. The Abridged MSQ always conforming to the standardized TTC.

You're not proposing a solution to your own problem

Actually, considering SE are the ones who condensed the MSQ, I don't think it's "my" problem

Best Wishes

-Reyketi

[Ammokkx]

Try going back, and reading my post.

Sure. Let's do that, keeping in mind I told you to give examples.

Introduce a new metric: Time-To-Cap (TTC) (Level 1 to max level)

Standardize the time is takes to reach level cap.

Apply this to every expansion that increases the level cap.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing, and cutscenes (perhaps still frames, with narration) bridging the gaps.

Shape the presentation of the MSQ around this time with questing and cutscenes like still frames bridging the gap... where?

Do you lose the context of the Azim Steppe? Just say "and then Hien gathered an army."?

Do you just say "And then Alphy and the WoL were two good bois and helped all around Ishgard!"?

Or, hell, what about the whole Doma Vs. Gyr Albania issue we're having? Gyr already feels barebones as all get-out compared to Doma, so do you want to take even more screentime away from it?

What about the three fights with Zenos, do you cut one of them?

This is what I mean. You're not thinking about where to put these "gap bridgers" as you put it, and not only this, but with your proposed "time to cap" idea, then you're running into one more issue:

The story gets even more barebones as each expansion rolls around because now you have to retroactively think about what to skip in the previous expansion.

And sure, you can say

Of course, this should be OPTIONAL, thus allowing players to level in the manner of which they choose.

Unabridged, and abridged.

The Unabridged MSQ condensing nothing. The Abridged MSQ always conforming to the standardized TTC.

but that wouldn't change the fact "abridged MSQ" is an awful experience. I'd be more, far more, in favor of giving everyone a free skip then ever implementing something like this because it is patently obvious you did not, in any way, think through what this would actually look like.

Point to what you can voiceover without losing narrative impact. Tell the devs exactly what they can do to improve the game. Don't just throw an idea at the wall and expect them to figure it out for you.

Also, I hope you like dev time being taken away from the next expansion as they now go back and figure out exactly what's safe to skip and what isn't. I mean, it's easy right? Just do a voiceover with some stills, how hard can it be? All they need to do is recap the story. I'm sure /haurchefant hits just as hard when we get a hot cup of brew in the recap.