The skill progression is atrocious

[tdb]

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

You also gain experience faster in the latter half, though the amount of experience required to level up grows somewhat faster. Going purely by the number of experience points, Lv74 is the halfway point. Time required to level up would be a better metric but numbers for that are harder to come by.

[linayar]

Time required to level up would be a better metric but numbers for that are harder to come by.

That's because there are many different factors to consider, like different exp buffs that apply at different ranges (usually lower than higher) or whether you're caught up with MSQ (assuming you're leveling while doing MSQ) or just what content you do to level.

Either way, having more at the beginning just doesn't make as much sense considering leveling is done once per job (per character), so the focus of the character will always be more toward the higher end of the level range. And no, syncing doesn't count because that has its own concerns and people don't have to do content that syncs them down if they're really against playing with the lower level rotations.

[KayRadley]

HardcoreRaider, is that you?

[Lumberfoot]

Exaggerations and hyperboles just don't work well when trying to make an argument.

That's why I didn't include them in the original argument, which was essentially the same.

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

I would look at the time it takes as opposed to the amount of experience, but even then it is only true after you're done with MSQ, otherwise you're stuck around level 50/60/70 for substantial amounts of time. And considering most of the most effective leveling methods scale to your level its not that much slower later on. Beast tribe quests even give more experience percentage-wise as you move to later expansions.

Yes, fast in certain parts, but the overall picture still shows a gradual progression.

I stand by my previous argument that the curve is not gradual.

Obviously, because there's not much point in arguing subjective preferences. That's why an objective reason could be helpful.

I don't agree that discussing different opinions of subjective matters is pointless, but I'm not gonna push it any further.

An objective reason would be that you learn your jobs skills and rotation properly before jumping into high level content. Dark knight spends 40 levels condition you to use your MP to spam damage abilities and then suddenly throws TBN at you at 70, just in time for the more challenging dungeons where proper use of such a crucial ability would be useful. The addition of the enochian timer and fire IV (that doesn't refresh umbral fire) for black mage completely changes the job and makes any previous rotation obsolete unless you go back to lower level content.

Another reason, one which I gave earlier, is that it would be far easier to figure out if you like a job or not without having to make such a substantial time-investment. Sitting through 50-60 levels with only the most basic abilities only to realize that the job wasn't as fun as you thought it would be is very disheartening.

[linayar]

I would look at the time it takes as opposed to the amount of experience, but even then it is only true after you're done with MSQ, otherwise you're stuck around level 50/60/70 for substantial amounts of time. And considering most of the most effective leveling methods scale to your level its not that much slower later on. Beast tribe quests even give more experience percentage-wise as you move to later expansions.

The time it takes could vary from player to player and job to job. And even with reward scaling, there is still no beating early level gains, especially with more exp buffs existing at lower levels.

I stand by my previous argument that the curve is not gradual.

Not really. For example:

Dragoon
1-50: 13 actions, 6 role actions, 0 trait.
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 2 traits
71-80: 4 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits

Black Mage
1-50: 17 actions, 4 role actions, 5 traits
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 4 traits
71-80: 3 actions, 0 role action, 4 traits

Bard
1-50: 14 actions, 6 role actions, 3 traits
51-70: 10 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits
71-80: 3 actions, 0 role action, 5 traits

An objective reason would be that you learn your jobs skills and rotation properly before jumping into high level content. Dark knight spends 40 levels condition you to use your MP to spam damage abilities and then suddenly throws TBN at you at 70, just in time for the more challenging dungeons where proper use of such a crucial ability would be useful. The addition of the enochian timer and fire IV (that doesn't refresh umbral fire) for black mage completely changes the job and makes any previous rotation obsolete unless you go back to lower level content.

FFXIV dungeons are not hard enough where you cannot learn your new skill at the appropriate level dungeon. And the fact that you can go to lower level content means rotations at those levels are never obsolete.

Another reason, one which I gave earlier, is that it would be far easier to figure out if you like a job or not without having to make such a substantial time-investment. Sitting through 50-60 levels with only the most basic abilities only to realize that the job wasn't as fun as you thought it would be is very disheartening.

That "issue" is mitigated by the fact that you can learn all jobs on the same character, so you don't lose anything substantial trying out any job. And really, in an MMORPG, making time investment is a given. And considering a job can change from patch to patch and especially from expansion to expansion, there is always the risk of you not liking the current iteration of the job.

[StriderShinryu]

I do agree that it would be nice if there was a rethink of skill growth over the course of the game. It's true that the early game can be pretty barren for some classes, and it's also true that some classes pretty fundamentally change once they hit certain levelling break points which can lead to you liking the feel of a job early on and then just not liking how they end up 60 levels deep. I'm imagining this will all be worked out in time but it will probably take more work than it seems on the surface.

[Lumberfoot]

The time it takes could vary from player to player and job to job. And even with reward scaling, there is still no beating early level gains, especially with more exp buffs existing at lower levels.

You spend a lot of time doing post-ARR MSQ, no matter how fast you level to that point you're still stuck there. Its not all about alt jobs. And I don't view this as a good excuse to have such as slow early game.

Not really. For example:
Dragoon
1-50: 13 actions, 6 role actions, 0 trait.
51-70: 9 actions, 0 role action, 2 traits
71-80: 4 actions, 0 role action, 3 traits

Dragoon gets 11 job specific actions 1-49, after this its given 1 new action every 2 levels till 62 (8 total) except for 50 when it gains 2, and then another 7 63-80. That's 32,5% of the job specific skills in a span of only 12 levels (50-62) and this is what I mean with the sudden bump in skill acquisition. Other classes are similar, such as BLM gaining 28% and Bard 26% in the same level span. If it was gradual you would expect to gain about 15% of your job skills in this span. Instead its saturated around the HW expansion, meaning content before and after this will end up lacking the same pace of skill progression.

FFXIV dungeons are not hard enough where you cannot learn your new skill at the appropriate level dungeon.

There's definitively a difference between post ShB and ShB dungeon difficulty. Its not the most difficult content ever, but if you are used to the easier content it comes across as strange and even chaotic (depending on the job) to have both new core skills and an increase in difficulty at the same time, when a lot of skills could simply have been added earlier.

And the fact that you can go to lower level content means rotations at those levels are never obsolete.

That's why I said "unless you go back to lower level content". One might also question why BLM before and after 60 almost plays as 2 different jobs. If you actually enjoy the simple gameplay of spamming fire I with the occasional firestarter proc and then switching to ice for MP regen, the new playstyle relying on keeping track of timer might turn you away from the job altogether.[/QUOTE]

That "issue" is mitigated by the fact that you can learn all jobs on the same character, so you don't lose anything substantial trying out any job. And really, in an MMORPG, making time investment is a given.

Sure you don't have to do the MSQ over again, but it doesn't mitigate it at all. You still have to level up a new job, not unlike leveling up a new alt. And whether or not a time investment is expected, leveling a job that you end up not wanting to play is simply a waste.

And considering a job can change from patch to patch and especially from expansion to expansion, there is always the risk of you not liking the current iteration of the job.

Yes, but that's a totally different issue.

[linayar]

If it was gradual you would expect to gain about 15% of your job skills in this span. Instead its saturated around the HW expansion, meaning content before and after this will end up lacking the same pace of skill progression.

No, gradual doesn't have to fit into any specific distribution. It's a generic term, and the skill distributions I listed still showed a gradual progression.

There's definitively a difference between post ShB and ShB dungeon difficulty. Its not the most difficult content ever, but if you are used to the easier content it comes across as strange and even chaotic (depending on the job) to have both new core skills and an increase in difficulty at the same time, when a lot of skills could simply have been added earlier.

Some of the earlier dungeons are more difficult than the newer dungeons. The only danger the newer dungeons pose is if you pull more than your group can handle, but that's also true in the older dungeons as well. And people have the time to adjust because there is a gradual progression of skill. You can take the time to read what each new ability gives you as you level as well as the help text for the job gauges.

That's why I said "unless you go back to lower level content". One might also question why BLM before and after 60 almost plays as 2 different jobs. If you actually enjoy the simple gameplay of spamming fire I with the occasional firestarter proc and then switching to ice for MP regen, the new playstyle relying on keeping track of timer might turn you away from the job altogether.

Sure you don't have to do the MSQ over again, but it doesn't mitigate it at all. You still have to level up a new job, not unlike leveling up a new alt. And whether or not a time investment is expected, leveling a job that you end up not wanting to play is simply a waste.

Yes, but that's a totally different issue.

This is a game of change. A game where your character progresses in some way. If you don't want to take the time to learn the changes, then that's on you to decide.

[Kyrj]

Anytime someone says X game has the most boring early game I tell them to go play a Ret Paladin in WoW. Start from level one and just go to lvl 15 or 20. It's the most painfully boring experiences I've had to go through... and I'm leveling every single Job right now all together through PotD.

[testname]

lol @Kyrj

The potd is best place because it unlocks all skills to lvl 60. Even as lvl one with no soul stone, You have much more to feel how job plays because unlocked skills.

I will mention You that in HW we had ALL skills to play with because game max level was 60, now jobs are chopped off.

Your comment I find funny and I take as irrelevant >_<, because what? You are saying about one thing about wow how worse it is, and then jumping into potd (it is like avoiding the debate, because potd grants you skills hyper fast) and the WoW example >_< . Like what? We can't have faster progression because wow has slower 6_9?

I am playing games since my life time, and the game is ridiculous easy and slow, if not my friends pushing me forward I would not stick around.

I understand that, the game is tuned to people who never ever played anything before, and is Ultra casual in that regard.