The skill progression is atrocious

[Lumberfoot]

No, gradual doesn't have to fit into any specific distribution. It's a generic term, and the skill distributions I listed still showed a gradual progression.

So really you could acquire 80% of your skills during the first 20 levels followed by 1 new skill every 10 leves and still have a gradual progression? It must do since there is no requirement for a specific distribution. Not saying it should be that way.

Some of the earlier dungeons are more difficult than the newer dungeons. The only danger the newer dungeons pose is if you pull more than your group can handle, but that's also true in the older dungeons as well. And people have the time to adjust because there is a gradual progression of skill. You can take the time to read what each new ability gives you as you level as well as the help text for the job gauges.

The mobs in holminster switch and onwards have a lot more health and hits a lot harder then previously (relatively of course), not to mention that healing potency starts to diminish at the same point making damage mitigation more important. Pulling more than you can handle is a bit too generic as an argument for me as it true for literally every dungeon in pretty much any mmorpg.

This is a game of change. A game where your character progresses in some way. If you don't want to take the time to learn the changes, then that's on you to decide.

I don't know where the claim that "this is a game of change" comes from, but character progression and a complete change in the way the job plays is not the same.

Anytime someone says X game has the most boring early game I tell them to go play a Ret Paladin in WoW. Start from level one and just go to lvl 15 or 20. It's the most painfully boring experiences I've had to go through... and I'm leveling every single Job right now all together through PotD.

As it happens I did play ret paladin during BC and WotLK. In Hindsight it should have been really boring, but those were different times with different expectations. And just because you can think of a more boring experience doesn't mean this game doesn't have boring parts. Playing with only 2 skills is still more fun than watching grass grow.

[linayar]

So really you could acquire 80% of your skills during the first 20 levels followed by 1 new skill every 10 leves and still have a gradual progression?

Yes.

The mobs in holminster switch and onwards have a lot more health and hits a lot harder then previously (relatively of course), not to mention that healing potency starts to diminish at the same point making damage mitigation more important. Pulling more than you can handle is a bit too generic as an argument for me as it true for literally every dungeon in pretty much any mmorpg.

Pulling more is really the only thing that can make it harder in a dungeon. You have more abilities to attack the enemies while at the same time defend yourselves from them.

I don't know where the claim that "this is a game of change" comes from, but character progression and a complete change in the way the job plays is not the same.

Progression can and does indeed change the way a job may play in this game.

[Lumberfoot]

Yes.

Which means that using the term "gradual" is essentially meaningless. It would also mean that a "sporadic" progression would be included in the term as well.

Pulling more is really the only thing that can make it harder in a dungeon. You have more abilities to attack the enemies while at the same time defend yourselves from them.

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

Progression can and does indeed change the way a job may play in this game.

Not what I was disputing.

[linayar]

Which means that using the term "gradual" is essentially meaningless. It would also mean that a "sporadic" progression would be included in the term as well.

If, by sporadic, you just mean it has irregular interval, then sure, it can be both sporadic and gradual at the same time in that way. But you were contrasting them, saying it's sporadic instead of gradual, so my point is that it is still gradual. Gradual is not meaningless as it means that you are getting skills throughout the leveling process.

Getting skills through job quests is an example of something that is sporadic, but not gradual. There are huge gaps where you don't get any skill through job quests, including the entirety of the current expansion (though it only has one job quest, to be fair) or the previous expansion where you only get a skill in the last job quest.

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

Then that just means the dungeons are even easier by default.

Not what I was disputing.

Then either accept it or play another game. If you don't want to spend the time leveling a job because you're afraid you might not like the job at the end of your current progression, then this game is not for you, because even if you like a job now, a new expansion will come, you level it another 10 levels, and then all of a sudden you may not like it any more. That is the nature of this game and why being able to do all jobs on one character is helpful in that regard.

[Lumberfoot]

If, by sporadic, you just mean it has irregular interval, then sure, it can be both sporadic and gradual at the same time in that way. But you were contrasting them, saying it's sporadic instead of gradual, so my point is that it is still gradual. Gradual is not meaningless as it means that you are getting skills throughout the leveling process.

I contrast them because I don't share your definition of gradual.

Then that just means the dungeons are even easier by default.

It does not. The point is that the dungeon is harder even when accounting for the addition of new abilities, which at the same time means the player have to keep track of more things.

Then either accept it or play another game. If you don't want to spend the time leveling a job because you're afraid you might not like the job at the end of your current progression, then this game is not for you, because even if you like a job now, a new expansion will come, you level it another 10 levels, and then all of a sudden you may not like it any more. That is the nature of this game and why being able to do all jobs on one character is helpful in that regard.

Right. Don't critique the game. Just accept it or leave. If this is your stance on the matter I don't understand why you even bother discussing it.

This feels like its getting out of hand. My suggestion was simply to improve the early game and making it more clear what the job will be at an earlier stage.

[Jojoya]

You do indeed have more abilities that you need to keep track of to make the run as smooth as earlier dungeons. If the game is balanced the difficulty will take the additional abilities into account and require you to use them properly, meaning that additional offensive and defensive abilities does not make the dungeon easier.

Which can then overwhelm the new, inexperienced player that's been given too much to learn at once if those new skills are introduced too rapidly compared to the pace of character progression. Those new players then get frustrated and quit because they feel the game is too complex/difficult to learn.

Game developers can't afford to assume every player is a veteran gamer able to figure out how to use large number of abilities quickly and easily because the truth is most aren't. There are people who have been playing online games for years that can still struggle to understand what they're supposed to do. Skills needed to be gradually introduced over time instead of being front-loaded. Or they need to be so limited in number overall that dragging out introduction makes no sense.

It is good for the "job-changing" skills to come late because getting those skills helps to emphasize the character has truly become more powerful over time. I'm not going to feel that my character more powerful at 80 than I do at 50 if my job effectively plays the same at both levels. I'm going to feel like it's the higher level gear that's powerful, not my character. Might as well just cut off the level cap at 50 in that case - your character is done. It can't learn more. It can only get more gear.

Character development is far more interesting (at least to me) than having to pick up a new set of gear every 5-10 levels to get more powerful while my character stagnates.

[Vahlnir]

Which can then overwhelm the new, inexperienced player that's been given too much to learn at once if those new skills are introduced too rapidly compared to the pace of character progression. Those new players then get frustrated and quit because they feel the game is too complex/difficult to learn.

Game developers can't afford to assume every player is a veteran gamer able to figure out how to use large number of abilities quickly and easily because the truth is most aren't. There are people who have been playing online games for years that can still struggle to understand what they're supposed to do. Skills needed to be gradually introduced over time instead of being front-loaded. Or they need to be so limited in number overall that dragging out introduction makes no sense.

It is good for the "job-changing" skills to come late because getting those skills helps to emphasize the character has truly become more powerful over time. I'm not going to feel that my character more powerful at 80 than I do at 50 if my job effectively plays the same at both levels. I'm going to feel like it's the higher level gear that's powerful, not my character. Might as well just cut off the level cap at 50 in that case - your character is done. It can't learn more. It can only get more gear.

Yep, exactly. Well said.

[StrykerGaming]

would be great for MCH to disable heated actions).

I'm a returning player after 4 years, so please pardon my ignorance. I've seen this acronym a few times. Can someone tell me what it stands for? Thanks.

[Vahlnir]

I'm a returning player after 4 years, so please pardon my ignorance. I've seen this acronym a few times. Can someone tell me what it stands for? Thanks.

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Machinist

[linayar]

I contrast them because I don't share your definition of gradual.

You contrasted them in response to Jojoya saying our characters "gradually get stronger," but the contrast does not disprove that statement.

It does not. The point is that the dungeon is harder even when accounting for the addition of new abilities, which at the same time means the player have to keep track of more things.

Uh, what? The player have to keep track of more things and yet the dungeon is still easily done. The dungeons are not harder relative to your abilities.

Right. Don't critique the game. Just accept it or leave. If this is your stance on the matter I don't understand why you even bother discussing it.

This feels like its getting out of hand. My suggestion was simply to improve the early game and making it more clear what the job will be at an earlier stage.

Accepting how the core of the game works, that your character progresses throughout the leveling process, is not saying don't critique the game.

But it is fair to say that, if you don't like how the game works, you can leave it to others and play another game that works in a way that you would enjoy better.