The skill progression is atrocious

[linayar]

Maybe "sporadic" is a bit strong, but fact is that early abilities have been getting further between with every patch. ARC and WHM don't get anything at all between levels Lv18 and Lv30. GLD and MRD have a plateau from Lv15 to Lv26. SCH only has five useful combat abilities at Lv30 and doesn't get an AoE heal until Lv35. Things generally seem to pick up after Lv30, but the levels before that seem kinda neglected.

You're forgetting role actions and traits.

I don't know about you, but I don't use "return" in my rotation, neither is the melee classes ranged attack a part of it. They count, but the problem with such abilities is that you rarely use them. Bard has 7 skills at lvl 29, but 80% of your skill usage consists of heavy shot.
And I don't know what makes you think that criticism based on the level of enjoyment you get from a video game is illegitimate? That's the whole point of the product. But if all that counts is that the game functions and you can finish it, then I guess there's nothing to complain about.

Criticism based on the level of enjoyment is legitimate. What's not legitimate is making false implications like, "No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities." Your enjoyment of what abilities this game gives you is irrelevant to the fact that this game does not wait until the "latter half" to "start" giving your character abilities.

There is an obvious bump in skill progression at lvl 50 for most classes. Before this the skills mostly consist of your basic attack chain along with some rather generic "buff damage by X for Y seconds" and, if you're a melee job, some ranged attack that's almost never used. Then, somewhere between 64 and 70, the skill acquisition suddenly drops again till 80. Sure, maybe "sporadic" might be a bit harsh, but it sure don't come across as gradual.

Gradual: "taking place or progressing slowly by degrees." The degrees may differ at different parts of the progression, but you are still gradually gaining abilities as you level.

This is not about being unable to do the content however.

I understand that you are trying to argue about the fun factor, but I do find it fun to play with less abilities from time to time.

[tdb]

You're forgetting role actions and traits.

Fair enough. WHM and SCH get lucid dreaming at Lv24, which is fairly significant. PLD and WAR get reprisal at Lv22, which is also useful. ARC on the other hand gets head graze at Lv24 - extremely situational, a handful of dungeons have something it can be used on.

[linayar]

Fair enough. WHM and SCH get lucid dreaming at Lv24, which is fairly significant. PLD and WAR get reprisal at Lv22, which is also useful. ARC on the other hand gets head graze at Lv24 - extremely situational, a handful of dungeons have something it can be used on.

And that's how this game works. You get abilities here and there as you level and you get passive traits that can improve your performance even if they don't necessarily change your gameplay (though they can also do that). Those abilities may form part of your core rotation or they might be more situational in nature, but they're there.

You can criticize specific aspects of certain jobs/roles, but I don't think the answer is frontloading most of every job's abilities at the beginning. Given the progression of this game, it makes more sense to me that you have (much) less abilities at the beginning than at the end.

[tdb]

You can criticize specific aspects of certain jobs/roles, but I don't think the answer is frontloading most of every job's abilities at the beginning. Given the progression of this game, it makes more sense to me that you have (much) less abilities at the beginning than at the end.

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

[DPZ2]

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

Don't exaggerate. Over the last 6 years it's never gone to fewer abilities at the early levels, with the exception of cross-class skills.

The minimum for Sastasha, by the way, is 2 buttons for Ninja if you don't count throwing knives. Most DPS have about 5 at that level.

[tdb]

Don't exaggerate. Over the last 6 years it's never gone to fewer abilities at the early levels, with the exception of cross-class skills.

Is that so? Let's see. I summon the power of the wiki to see into the past.

ARC used to have Misery's End (oGCD attack against injured enemies) at Lv8, Shadowbind (root) at Lv10 and Hawk's Eye (dex/accuracy buff) at Lv26. They no longer have any of those and nothing was added to replace them.

ROG used to have Kiss of the Wasp (attack buff) at Lv6, Mutilate (DoT) at Lv8, Assassinate at Lv12, Goad (TP refresh) at Lv18, Sneak Attack at Lv22 and Kiss of the Viper (alternate attack buff) at Lv30. Assassinate got moved to a much higher level, the others were removed. Trick Attack got moved down to Lv18 and Shadow Fang to Lv30, but it's still a net loss of buttons.

CNJ used to have Cleric Stance (attack/heal switch) at Lv6 and Protect at Lv8. Those got first moved to role actions and later removed entirely. Nothing was added to replace them.

MRD used to have Foresight (defensive buff) at Lv2, Skull Sunder (alternate combo attack) at Lv4, Fracture (DoT) at Lv6, Bloodbath (life leech) at Lv8, Brutal Swing (stunning attack) at Lv10 and Mercy Stroke (oGCD attack against injured enemies) at Lv26. Foresight was combined into Rampart and made a role action, others were removed. Defiance was added at Lv10, Storm's Path got moved down to Lv26 and Thrill of Battle to Lv30, but it's still a net loss of buttons.

I'm not counting role actions as gains here, since they were introduced to replace cross-class skills and offer much less options, so the removal of cross-class skills can be seen as a huge loss as well.

Still want to tell me how the number of abilities has never decreased? I can dig up more examples.

(On the off chance that by "never gone to fewer abilities" you meant "we're at an all-time low number of abilities" I agree with you.)

"Sastasha with one button" was indeed hyperbole and I don't really expect SE to go quite that far.

[linayar]

Neither can we keep moving the abilities to higher and higher levels either, or we'll end up doing Sastasha with one button.

Well, we'll cross that bridge when and if we get there. Until then, I'm happy with what they've done so far, for the most part.

[Lumberfoot]

Criticism based on the level of enjoyment is legitimate. What's not legitimate is making false implications like, "No other RPG that I have ever played have waited until the later half of the game to start giving your character abilities." Your enjoyment of what abilities this game gives you is irrelevant to the fact that this game does not wait until the "latter half" to "start" giving your character abilities.

I thought that would be such a obviously exaggeration that it would be clear that I wasn't being serious, but I guess not. Of course you get skills before the half way mark, but the majority of them are learned in the latter half.

Gradual: "taking place or progressing slowly by degrees." The degrees may differ at different parts of the progression, but you are still gradually gaining abilities as you level.

Sorry but when the degree vary as much as they do here (you are actually making quite fast progress during certain parts) the definition of gradual you posted does not apply. If you would make a curve out of the skill acquisition over the levels, it would not represent something I would call gradual.

I understand that you are trying to argue about the fun factor, but I do find it fun to play with less abilities from time to time.

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue that you're not allowed to enjoy it.

[AceofRains]

I can’t really speak for other players, but as a controller player, I’m happy to accommodate at maximum, 32 active abilities on my hot bars, between each button switch on the controller. Right now it seems 24 is roughly their limit as far as bloat is concerned. I think Paladins have the most active abilities (including role actions).

As for in between, some more traits would actually be nice. I thought “All-fours” on Ninja was pretty cool, that reduces fall damage. Not really necessary but still cool. I would have loved to see a “Hi-Jump” on Dragoon, or other something like that. CC resistances could be cool too- FFXI had this. Small passives that characterize the job a little better.

[linayar]

I thought that would be such a obviously exaggeration that it would be clear that I wasn't being serious, but I guess not.

Exaggerations and hyperboles just don't work well when trying to make an argument.

Of course you get skills before the half way mark, but the majority of them are learned in the latter half.

Perhaps, but that fits the scale of the progression better. It takes less experience to level through the first 40 levels than it does to level through the second 40 levels.

Sorry but when the degree vary as much as they do here (you are actually making quite fast progress during certain parts) the definition of gradual you posted does not apply. If you would make a curve out of the skill acquisition over the levels, it would not represent something I would call gradual.

Yes, fast in certain parts, but the overall picture still shows a gradual progression.

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue that you're not allowed to enjoy it.

Obviously, because there's not much point in arguing subjective preferences. That's why an objective reason could be helpful.