FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[Veis_Alveare]

Always wondered what's running (or not) certain "high-end" content have to do with anything.

Spending the time to learn an Ultimate means you've taken a considerable amount of your time and dedicated it to understanding some of the finer points of the game. You don't clear Ultimates by spending a few hours a week in PF.

Suggesting that the OP hasn't been in an Ultimate (to me) implies he has neither the deduction nor understanding to make broad, sweeping generalizations about the game's relationship with more 'hardcore' players.

[Hatfright]

Spending the time to learn an Ultimate means you've taken a considerable amount of your time and dedicated it to understanding some of the finer points of the game. You don't clear Ultimates by spending a few hours a week in PF.

Suggesting that the OP hasn't been in an Ultimate (to me) implies he has neither the deduction nor understanding to make broad, sweeping generalizations about the game's relationship with more 'hardcore' players.

That implies that people are interested in doing such content. Which, let's be honest here, isn't always the case. And I believe people shoudn't be judged by it. Personally, after watching videos and guides about it, I don't find it all that interesting. Is it fast pased? Yes. Does it requare dedication? Of course, but so does crafting for that Firmament achievements or farmig Ex for mounts if you're not lucky enough. Understanding of your class? Absolutely, and so does many other things, maybe to a lesser degree, not gonna argue here. But otherwise it's just another case of memorising the pattern, which, as you aware, I don't really like. So I don't think Ultimates are, forgive me that pun, an ultimate metric of persons character. People who finished them deffo deserve respect for putting time and effort into it, but that doesn't mean everybody else is unworthy of respect at all or that their conserns should be ignored, don't you think?

[Veis_Alveare]

That implies that people are interested in doing such content. Which, let's be honest here, isn't always the case. And I believe people shoudn't be judged by it. Personally, after watching videos and guides about it, I don't find it all that interesting. Is it fast pased? Yes. Does it requare dedication? Of course, but so does crafting for that Firmament achievements or farmig Ex for mounts if you're not lucky enough. Understanding of your class? Absolutely, and so does many other things, maybe to a lesser degree, not gonna argue here. But otherwise it's just another case of memorising the pattern, which, as you aware, I don't really like. So I don't think Ultimates are, forgive me that pun, an ultimate metric of persons character. People who finished them deffo deserve respect for putting time and effort into it, but that doesn't mean everybody else is unworthy of respect at all or that their conserns should be ignored, don't you think?

I totally agree. I'm not saying that completion of ultimate fights is necessary to have your opinion be valid, I'm saying someone who has nothing to do with the high end of this game probably shouldn't be speaking about the relationship between the game and the high end scene.

It would be the equivalent of me talking about how "ffxiv wasn't made for roleplayers" like... I have no idea how many features of this game cater well to RP. I'd honestly guess that it's kinda good but the homogenization of character design probably doesn't help so like should I just say that this game isn't made for RPers?

I shouldn't because I'm not educated about that community or how it works at all, same as OP talking about raiders of any sort.

[Hatfright]

I totally agree. I'm not saying that completion of ultimate fights is necessary to have your opinion be valid, I'm saying someone who has nothing to do with the high end of this game probably shouldn't be speaking about the relationship between the game and the high end scene.

It would be the equivalent of me talking about how "ffxiv wasn't made for roleplayers" like... I have no idea how many features of this game cater well to RP. I'd honestly guess that it's kinda good but the homogenization of character design probably doesn't help so like should I just say that this game isn't made for RPers?

I shouldn't because I'm not educated about that community or how it works at all, same as OP talking about raiders of any sort.

Ah, I see.
Tbh, I didn't read past first page, so all I saw was paraphrased "stop harrasing people in normal difficulty duties based on your expectations of performance" in almost desperate attempt to be heard. Which I can sympathize with, just cuz none of us knows why other people might "underperform" in DF, but way too many people love to jump the "you're lazy" train at the first sight of a simple mistake. All we know, person might be trying and doing their best, but obstacles outside of their control won't let them perform as people want them to. And, well, I tend to agree with "there's no need for Ex/Savage/Ultimate level of performance in DF". It mostly tank and spank anyway.

[Veis_Alveare]

Ah, I see.
Tbh, I didn't read past first page, so all I saw was paraphrased "stop harrasing people in normal difficulty duties based on your expectations of performance" in almost desperate attempt to be heard. Which I can sympathize with, just cuz none of us knows why other people might "underperform" in DF, but way too many people love to jump the "you're lazy" train at the first sight of a simple mistake. All we know, person might be trying and doing their best, but obstacles outside of their control won't let them perform as people want them to. And, well, I tend to agree with "there's no need for Ex/Savage/Ultimate level of performance in DF". It mostly tank and spank anyway.

Again, I'd totally agree with you here.

I think the biggest breakdown in communication when it comes to discussion around performance is just really about what constitutes a realistic expectation.

The players setting some kind of expectation beyond "clear before the instance timer runs out" aren't always (or, in my opinion) asking for EX+ level play in DF content. I honestly don't know of a time I've seen anyone make the argument that someone needs that sort of skill and uptime in non-enrage style content.

If I can be honest, and I genuinely hope you don't take offence because I mean none here, what I can see of the character listed as your main here on The Website We Cannot Link is kind of a good example of what I mean. You aren't pulling the numbers you'd need to be competitive in Savage... but then you're still adequately performing your basics to a point that if I encountered you in a roulette I wouldn't bat an eye.

I think that's what most people are hoping for really. Someone who's read their tooltips and is trying to help kill the stuff in a logical way.

For what it's worth the OP of this thread is something of a known troll around here as well. He makes threads that are specifically targeted at "stirring the pot" and breeding controversy. I'm not surprised that's the impression you got from the first page but anyone familiar with him will tell you these topics really appear to not be coming from a genuine place.

[Derby_Crash]

I don’t understand why you should be obsessed with the opinions of people who ultimately do not affect your game in any way.

Except they do, though. Back in 4.05, they did some minor changes to Warrior that changed my opinion to thinking "warrior is the worst tank in the game" to "warrior is the best tank in the game." I absolutely loved the rotation and the gauge management during that patch. The rotation was difficult, but it felt extremely rewarding and satisfactory. A group of people came out complaining that warrior was too difficult, so they dumbed Warrior down so much in 4.1. Then come Shadowbringers, every tank was reduced to a pretty bad warrior clone (especially Dark Knight) with Gunbreaker being the exception (maybe), and let's not even get into how Square decided to "fix" aggro management.

[RajNish]

Except they do, though. Back in 4.05, they did some minor changes to Warrior that changed my opinion to thinking "warrior is the worst tank in the game" to "warrior is the best tank in the game." I absolutely loved the rotation and the gauge management during that patch. The rotation was difficult, but it felt extremely rewarding and satisfactory. A group of people came out complaining that warrior was too difficult, so they dumbed Warrior down so much in 4.1. Then come Shadowbringers, every tank was reduced to a pretty bad warrior clone (especially Dark Knight) with Gunbreaker being the exception (maybe), and let's not even get into how Square decided to "fix" aggro management.

It's not about classes. Most of the people here on the forums, like you and me, have never seen an OP in-game (and never will, I suppose). So we do not know him for certain as a player and "Git Gud" sounds weird, because anyone have no idea that he really needs to improve (or maybe not). I would understand if it were constructive suggestions from people from his static or FC, their opinions would be much more important.

[Veis_Alveare]

It's not about classes. Most of the people here on the forums, like you and me, have never seen an OP in-game (and never will, I suppose). So we do not know him for certain as a player and "Git Gud" sounds weird, because anyone have no idea that he really needs to improve (or maybe not). I would understand if it were constructive suggestions from people from his static or FC, their opinions would be much more important.

You asked how this guy effects others and were given an example of it only to turn it away with "it's not about that" like... it clearly is for the person you're responding to.

Vocal hypercasuals are definitely one of the reasons we've seen the overall gameplay get simpler. I'm not trying to claim that's inherently good or bad but for someone who feels it's bad it's very relevant to call it out.

[linayar]

Vocal hypercasuals are definitely one of the reasons we've seen the overall gameplay get simpler.

On that note, I wonder if it matters in this case if it's on the English forum. We've heard it said that the devs don't necessarily "listen" to the English community (allegedly, I'm not sure I agree with that assessment myself, though that may be for another topic), especially if there is no equivalent feedback on the Japanese community.

[Hatfright]

If I can be honest, and I genuinely hope you don't take offence because I mean none here, what I can see of the character listed as your main here on The Website We Cannot Link is kind of a good example of what I mean. You aren't pulling the numbers you'd need to be competitive in Savage... but then you're still adequately performing your basics to a point that if I encountered you in a roulette I wouldn't bat an eye.

None taken, I know my limits. Tho I couldn't help myself but laugh a bit, cuz few weeks ago you couldn't find anything on me, and today is bam, here it is, despite the fact that I still have no idea how to use said site, and only know it exists. But that's a little off-topic here.

I think the biggest breakdown in communication when it comes to discussion around performance is just really about what constitutes a realistic expectation.

Communication problem is a thing, yeah. As far as I can see in that matter, it's always down to personal expiriences. Usually people who raise their concerns about pretty much everything on these forums can only back it up with said expirience. Some casual players met enough rude people who happened to raid: "You raiders are all abusers!", some raiders met enough sprouts who doesn't yet "click" into their class or role: "You casuals are all lazy axes!", some people had LotA in their Alliance roulette week in a row: "This system is rigged!" and so on. I can understand the frustration behind every such claim, what I can't understand is the people who come to such treads with nothing but mockery or the need to bring everything on its head. That usually only solidifies the opinion in question for someone who's not around much. No matter the intention or reality of the claim, there's always be people who've met the same expirience as OP. I don't think we should be mocking them.

Tl:dr, people really need to tone it down a bit and stop raising pitchforks as an answer for everything.