FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[Raelsar]

I'll just add in a few quick comments...

First off, there is a valid point in saying that the game is not intended to appeal to hardcore players only; it's quite evident when you start looking into stuff like the production values for the game. Where is the budget going to? The MSQ, which pretty much is the only piece of content in the game to have voice-acting (some sound bytes in encounters not withstanding). It's not Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate (all of which are spin-offs of other content), but the one thing that everyone does.

Second, the concern here isn't so much that hardcore content exists. It's about the expectations of the hardcore playerbase being applied to casual players in casual content. I've seen this slow deterioration before with WoW, and if it isn't kept in check, it can become a major detriment to the community of the game; everyone just becomes unpleasant as more and more people start demanding optimization and efficiency over having a good time here and now. Just because things can be optimized, it doesn't mean it MUST be optimized... or even should be for that matter. So long as you're clearing the content, then you're doing fine. Luckily, this seems to be the perspective shared by the developers.

And lastly... the hardcore playerbase needs to learn how to make their own challenges. The game can be easy at times, but quite often the best approach to adding in a challenge is not demand the game to give it to you but to create your own within the game's rules (and preferably without dragging in those who aren't interested in such things). There's a myriad of examples over the years across many genres: low level runs, no gear / naked runs (glamour gear only runs could work here), speed runs, and so on. Though the one thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't expect the optimized (often a speedrun) from everyone without the explicit consent of the whole group; it's rather annoying when people are expecting that when not everyone is onboard with it, at least one person will be having a bad time and misery loves company.

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Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem. Sometimes that means lowering your expectations and being helpful instead of constantly pushing people to up their performance.

You're unhappy, and you're making them unhappy too; no one is going to come out of such a run being anything other than miserable. So rather than be a jerk about it... stop worrying so much about it not being perfect and just enjoy something when it's good enough.

[Cerscent]

Troll post or not, Ima jump in cause why not....

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes. For the record, I've had some of the best and most helpful in-game experiences with progress-parties in PF for savage content, with people that are flagged as 'toxic'. Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

There's also a fundamental flaw in your point, expecting you to play the game the way it's supposed to is not "expecting hardcore-level gameplay" from you. Skills combo with each other in certain ways because the game is designed that way, and if you're not doing you're doing it wrong.

Are you free to go into content as a WHM and just heal, and never cast Glare/Dia/Assize? Of course, but you're only using half of the class. It's not about 'optimization', it's about using your entire kit. That's like playing chess, but you're only using the pawns, and refuse to use any other piece.

Why is it toxic that I want players to use their classes the way they're meant to, but it's not toxic when a player in my party decides to waste my time and make a run 10+ mins longer than it should be?

I agree with the fact that this game is mostly casual, but if you're free to play the game the most laidback way you possibly can, then others are free to call you out / kick you when you're dragging them down.

Your point about reaction times is completely off-topic too, this game isn't about reaction times, it's about knowing mechanics and getting used to fights.

[linayar]

Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes.

People who actually think like that (and not just using shorthand labels in discussions) are not representative of any meaningful segment of the "casual" community and discussions around this topic should not be framed to address that kind of crowd. It can easily lead to strawman arguments.

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. ... Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

And that's why it's irrelevant to say that one part of the community is more toxic than the other because your experiences may vary with the people you meet and which side of the fence you stand.

[Silverrr]

Troll post or not, Ima jump in cause why not....

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes. For the record, I've had some of the best and most helpful in-game experiences with progress-parties in PF for savage content, with people that are flagged as 'toxic'. Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

There's also a fundamental flaw in your point, expecting you to play the game the way it's supposed to is not "expecting hardcore-level gameplay" from you. Skills combo with each other in certain ways because the game is designed that way, and if you're not doing you're doing it wrong.

Are you free to go into content as a WHM and just heal, and never cast Glare/Dia/Assize? Of course, but you're only using half of the class. It's not about 'optimization', it's about using your entire kit. That's like playing chess, but you're only using the pawns, and refuse to use any other piece.

Why is it toxic that I want players to use their classes the way they're meant to, but it's not toxic when a player in my party decides to waste my time and make a run 10+ mins longer than it should be?

I agree with the fact that this game is mostly casual, but if you're free to play the game the most laidback way you possibly can, then others are free to call you out / kick you when you're dragging them down.

Your point about reaction times is completely off-topic too, this game isn't about reaction times, it's about knowing mechanics and getting used to fights.

If you think the casual community is more toxic than the raiding community (especially hardcore) you're either delusional or barely raided at all. I've done tiers with both party finder and multiple statics and nothing in casual content has come even close to the things i've seen in savage parties being said in multiple occasions

[Granyala]

Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem.

Well, lets be fair about one thing: If a developer empathizes running content ad nauseum for [reward] and new content is sparse, people will get sick of it and they will value efficiency above all else. MMO are notorious for that but it really applies to any game that has meaningless busywork (a.k.a. grind) to do in order to tackle the fun stuff.

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

[linayar]

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. To me, what makes it bearable is the timegating, so I'm not actually grinding nonstop and only doing a certain amount each day. Also, I view the random players/instances as potentials to make the run different each time, so I'm never that bored, though it depends on how my day had gone at work or elsewhere IRL.