SUGGESTION: Turn Bluemage into a regular job - Limited Job>Advanced Job (An Approach)

[Shougun]

Technically not "funky" as that was the sole intentional design of how DRG was meant to be played. The interviews explained they ruined DRG by doing that, but also had the mentality that the players would eventually come up with a tactic they didnt forsee, and so they usually didnt bother fixing "nerfed" jobs. Only "too OP" jobs/abilities.
Of course the players didnt come up with a work around, but the developers came up with an alternative way to fix DRG, which was an indirect fix.
(1) Help all 2handers accuracy in ToAU.
(2) Make very low HP enemies who were weak to piercing damage. (This also helped THF, as it was also considered rather weak, and could use piercing dmg on the same enemy variety)
When it came to endgame, DRG was mostly fine as it was, so they didnt need to fix it for endgame bosses, so thats why they stuck to this halfhearted bandaid fix.

EDIT: according to the devs, regarding BLU, western players used BLU as a melee DPS. Japanese players mostly saw it as an equivalent to SMN. A job thats meant to be a Caster, but better off being used as a healer. (Most JP groups didnt let BLU DPS) The Devs said they personally saw BLU as mostly a Caster DPS. They mentioned this, as justification for nerfing BLUs melee DPS, and buffing nukes. BLU did need the buff to nukes, but the melee nerf was uneeded, as BLU was already one of the weakest DPS on normal mobs past Lv27. BLU didnt get most of its magical DPS until later, so this left BLU with a large level gap of being a really crappy DPS. (Roughly half the DPS of a normal damage dealer) and other gaps at the tail end, and start of this gap, which made it just slightly weaker. (maybe 20%? These are of course rough estimates)
So the devs did confirm there were intended to be DPS (Caster, not melee mage) but were also given options to be helpful in other fronts. (Melee options were intended for tanking, not for DPS, since they assumed u would be in melee range if u tanked, and melee spells should be weaker, since they didnt have cast bars. Im pretty sure they embraced the melee BLU at some point after i quit)

Really really early on in FFXI the multi hit combos used to give more tp back, so with samurai dragoon could near endlessly go from weapon skill to weapon skill. You're right that they made other changes to two handed weapons and stuff, but long long ago tp from multi hit attacks got a bit silly and they went out of their way to nerf it (iirc monk had this with their relic and their 8 fold attacks). Although that they nerfed it wasn't the point, just that by having certain sub jobs your play style shifted massively.


That we don't have that system, so the variety FFXI offered doesn't necessarily translate well here and that the variety wasn't a reflect on your main job as much as it was a reflection on your main & sub job together (like SMN/WHM makes you a main healer, but SMN on its own in that game was not a main healer). BLU / WHM is a main healer but BLU / NIN is definitely not.

Which again isn't to say you can't have blue be kind of special here in FFXIV, it's just that using FFXI comes with a whole bunch of funk that we don't have here and so BLU / WHM isn't necessarily == BLU. BLU is == to BLU (so like in FFXI if you never added a subjob to your BLU they'd be an awful main healer but still not a bad damage dealer). Although I want to add I agree with you that often the funk was intended lol.

As an aside I played BLU as a caster first (most of my time spent casting, although of course I absolutely took advantage of weapon skills and self combo'ing if there wasn't someone to work with), and didn't have anyone try to correct me on the western way to play (calling it that since you mentioned it like that, honestly first time I heard of it, but I also didn't read much in the way of guides)- but my name sort of got me into a lot JP parties even if I didn't talk almost at all so.. lol /shrug.

[MaraD_]

Really really early on in FFXI the multi hit combos used to give more tp back, so with samurai dragoon could near endlessly go from weapon skill to weapon skill.

If i remember correctly, it was roughly 50 TP return. It wasnt as endless as MNK with the relic weapon. (which literally was) But I think some of the better examples of "funky" SJ stuff, would more technically be NIN, since they quite literally didnt intend players to use NIN tanks, nor /NIN for its survivability for tanking. (Which to the other poster, Ninjas Utsusemi spell allowed them to dodge the next 3 attacks. they had another version of this that gave them another 3 evades. When the job came out, i believe it was something like teir1 was 4 evades, and teir2 was 5 evades. This let them chain them together infinitely, never getting hit. So of course everyone was JOB/NIN to make it easy to just never get hit.
They nerfed NIN, but they didnt want to completely ruin peoples new found strategy, so they compromised with 3+3, instead of 4+5. You still need a refresher to give the NIN haste, and the NIN needed to gear for more evasion/haste, in order to limit the amount of times they got hit inbetween evasions. They also allowed AoE spells to break all evasions in a single attack.

For the same expansion, they released SAM, which they intended players to use as a Tank. (BTW this is the 1st time they made a tank job, because WAR and PLD werent actually intended to tank. They intentionally designed the game to try and make it impossible to hold hate for too long, so as to have enemies bounce between all the melee DPS. More on this at the bottom) Not only would SAM be a terrible tank in comparison to PLD, most players were tired of using WAR as a tank, because it just simply put wasnt good enough to mitigate enough dmg to actually kill enemies effectively. SAM would have barely been better than WAR. So everyone now used a bunch of DPS, or WARs, who subbed NIN, and japanese parties would have the mob bounce around to different melee DPS, so as to have it eat everyone's evasions, and try to let no one actually take dmg. Western players refused to try this for many years, with maybe a handful per server who would try it. Western players would only try the next tactic of 2 WAR/NINs, who would bounce the mob between them. This was reasonably effective. A bit risky at time, due to the amount of damage they took (they were geared for Attack/Acc, not Defense) but ironically enough, westerners were the ones who decided to make a full party of "DPS with /NIN" for Lv75 party content. With the JP players usually refusing to do it for a long while. (But the JP players were still very effective at the old method, while most western players couldnt use the old method, w/o lossing efficiency by massive amounts.)

As for the whole "1st tank job", they intentionally tried to make the game not have a dedicated tank. Due to how old FFs were designed to just have the "Front row" jobs take hits. (Its more complex than that, but w/e) Threat was designed to decay over time, along with a players threat going down massively if they take dmg, the more dmg they took, the more threat lost. This would ensure the mob jumps around to different players. Cures also generated 0 threat, so healers never had to worry about their threat. BLM nuke threat was also slightly lower back then, and pretty much WARs provoke was meant for emergencies, or for BLMs heavy nukes at Lv50.
Elemental magical "Weapon Skills" were the most powerful attacks, and players quickly realized that WHM could do as much DPS as a DPS. So SE nerfed WHMs DPS, and nerfed ALL magical "Weapon Skills" (They were considered absolutely useless for years, due to how weak they were) They gave cures enmity, and magical attacks more enmity.
This lead to players stacking WARs, or /WAR for provoke, since healers were pretty much tanking 20-50% of the fight. IF the enemy landed a single tank buster on them, it was over. (Most melee cant survive tank busters from mobs, only 2 could at that level. MNK (with its insainely high HP) or PLD (with its higher defense than WAR) PLD still died maybe one in 50 tank busters, if they werent perfectly geared/topped off. WAR seemed to die 1 in 8, until they got an ability to double defense, then they didnt have that issue until Lv50+~ish)

PLD would get hurt, and then heal itself. This made the monster go right back to attacking the PLD. Which in turn lead to the PLD needing to heal themselves again. This never ending loop turned PLD into the default tank. So once NIN came out, "not getting hit" means the tank doesnt lose the threat from getting hit. Which in turn helpped them "not lose threat". Of course they had to gain the threat, since their DPS was really bad as a non caster, or non physical ranged DPS. (most ppl used them for melee, which they were nearly terrible at, except in some level ranges) NIN hardly died, but it was easy for a good DPS to pull threat and tank/die. PLD could still die easily, but it dealt no DPS since it spam healed itself.

And thats when SE decided to make SAM, a weaker version of WAR, with an additional weak mitigation option. If you paired them together, a SAM/WAR would have more mitigation than a WAR/SAM or a WAR/MNK. But with how fragile a PLD was, and PLD was at least twice as good as a WAR, a SAM/WAR being only... 10% better wasnt good enough, and NIN on the other hand was a game changer.

As an aside I played BLU as a caster first, and didn't have anyone try to correct me on the western way to play

I dont mean thats what everyone told u to do, but just what was popular, and how the west generally saw it. Everyone saw the trailers and were like "OMG, its the melee caster we always wished RDm were!!!1!"
I do know a few people eventually refused to invite BLUs if they weren't /THF (which, if u were going to melee, was one of the best SJ options honestly. But for caster was a terrible SJ)
Like I said, I played BLU as every role at some point or another, and thats what I loved most about it. Id intentionally try to be different roles for CoP missions, just to see what I could do. (As time went on, I realize CoP missions were actually easier than ud imagine, and almost any job combo was possible, even having NO HEALERS! Only 2 fights were actually hard enough to limit your party comp options. (Omega/Ultima, and the Pots fight right before the final boss)

[Shougun]

edit incoming...

If i remember correctly, it was roughly 50 TP return. It wasnt as endless as MNK with the relic weapon. (which literally was) But I think some of the better examples of "funky" SJ stuff, would more technically be NIN, since they quite literally didnt intend players to use NIN tanks, nor /NIN for its survivability for tanking. (Which to the other poster, Ninjas Utsusemi spell allowed them to dodge the next 3 attacks. they had another version of this that gave them another 3 evades. When the job came out, i believe it was something like teir1 was 4 evades, and teir2 was 5 evades. This let them chain them together infinitely, never getting hit. So of course everyone was JOB/NIN to make it easy to just never get hit.
They nerfed NIN, but they didnt want to completely ruin peoples new found strategy, so they compromised with 3+3, instead of 4+5. You still need a refresher to give the NIN haste, and the NIN needed to gear for more evasion/haste, in order to limit the amount of times they got hit inbetween evasions. They also allowed AoE spells to break all evasions in a single attack.

For the same expansion, they released SAM, which they intended players to use as a Tank. (BTW this is the 1st time they made a tank job, because WAR and PLD werent actually intended to tank. They intentionally designed the game to try and make it impossible to hold hate for too long, so as to have enemies bounce between all the melee DPS. More on this at the bottom) Not only would SAM be a terrible tank in comparison to PLD, most players were tired of using WAR as a tank, because it just simply put wasnt good enough to mitigate enough dmg to actually kill enemies effectively. SAM would have barely been better than WAR. So everyone now used a bunch of DPS, or WARs, who subbed NIN, and japanese parties would have the mob bounce around to different melee DPS, so as to have it eat everyone's evasions, and try to let no one actually take dmg. Western players refused to try this for many years, with maybe a handful per server who would try it. Western players would only try the next tactic of 2 WAR/NINs, who would bounce the mob between them. This was reasonably effective. A bit risky at time, due to the amount of damage they took (they were geared for Attack/Acc, not Defense) but ironically enough, westerners were the ones who decided to make a full party of "DPS with /NIN" for Lv75 party content. With the JP players usually refusing to do it for a long while. (But the JP players were still very effective at the old method, while most western players couldnt use the old method, w/o lossing efficiency by massive amounts.)

As for the whole "1st tank job", they intentionally tried to make the game not have a dedicated tank. Due to how old FFs were designed to just have the "Front row" jobs take hits. (Its more complex than that, but w/e) Threat was designed to decay over time, along with a players threat going down massively if they take dmg, the more dmg they took, the more threat lost. This would ensure the mob jumps around to different players. Cures also generated 0 threat, so healers never had to worry about their threat. BLM nuke threat was also slightly lower back then, and pretty much WARs provoke was meant for emergencies, or for BLMs heavy nukes at Lv50.
Elemental magical "Weapon Skills" were the most powerful attacks, and players quickly realized that WHM could do as much DPS as a DPS. So SE nerfed WHMs DPS, and nerfed ALL magical "Weapon Skills" (They were considered absolutely useless for years, due to how weak they were) They gave cures enmity, and magical attacks more enmity.
This lead to players stacking WARs, or /WAR for provoke, since healers were pretty much tanking 20-50% of the fight. IF the enemy landed a single tank buster on them, it was over. (Most melee cant survive tank busters from mobs, only 2 could at that level. MNK (with its insainely high HP) or PLD (with its higher defense than WAR) PLD still died maybe one in 50 tank busters, if they werent perfectly geared/topped off. WAR seemed to die 1 in 8, until they got an ability to double defense, then they didnt have that issue until Lv50+~ish)

PLD would get hurt, and then heal itself. This made the monster go right back to attacking the PLD. Which in turn lead to the PLD needing to heal themselves again. This never ending loop turned PLD into the default tank. So once NIN came out, "not getting hit" means the tank doesnt lose the threat from getting hit. Which in turn helpped them "not lose threat". Of course they had to gain the threat, since their DPS was really bad as a non caster, or non physical ranged DPS. (most ppl used them for melee, which they were nearly terrible at, except in some level ranges) NIN hardly died, but it was easy for a good DPS to pull threat and tank/die. PLD could still die easily, but it dealt no DPS since it spam healed itself.

And thats when SE decided to make SAM, a weaker version of WAR, with an additional weak mitigation option. If you paired them together, a SAM/WAR would have more mitigation than a WAR/SAM or a WAR/MNK. But with how fragile a PLD was, and PLD was at least twice as good as a WAR, a SAM/WAR being only... 10% better wasnt good enough, and NIN on the other hand was a game changer.

Like for all the nostalgia of talking about FFXI lol. But it also reminds me, well more re-solidifies, how awkwardly balanced and the weird expectations they had for players, ... almost that feeling no one tested the game as a "player" before releasing the design. Not to say I didn't enjoy it, just a feeling that they were designing stuff in a vacuum, maybe even a vacuum within their own company (like one person's input and testing and that's that).

Maybe its a culture thing like "okay we made it do this so we are going to test it like we made it", but at least from my perspective that seems like.. ye...a..h..... so... whatever you wanted your users to do is probably not what they're going to do lol.

Like ninja tank and their Pikachu face when players used it as such. Feels as if some higher up was like "yeah this will be great, add it in boyysszz" and someone may have thought to say something but was silent and then later they're shocked that they just made the best tank in the game on accident. For penta thrust I think it was 60 TP, but honestly doesn't matter lol. Was just a random example stuck in my mind where sub jobs changed how you'd approach things (a job may be tank, healer, or dd, all because of a few choice picked pieces of gear and a sub job), but there are so many examples (and many intended).

[ADVSS]

Im honestly confused by what you're saying here. I tried rereading it a few times, and Ive given up. ^^;

Sorry for the confusion, but literally as explained to me, almost any job could fill roles with proper subjobs it seems. Ninja evade tanks, Summoner healers, etc. but if there were no subjobs in xi, then what would you classify it as? Was sort of my point(you elaborated exactly what i meant when you said you discovered that by giving it /war etc it could actually tank). The same with RDM rage when it was a caster dps that occaisionally moved in for melee in xiv. XI has a cool concept, that the cross class system in xiv -could- have emulated for more role definition and gameplay flexibility, but alas it didnt. I had typed up a "what if" years ago if they had taken from 2.0 the idea of creating job paths through classing, similarly to sch/smn, but probably moreso in the vein of a hyper customizable but limited XI - based cross class system to create jobs(meaning, warriors didnt just use big axe, they had a variety of weapons, for which 'weaponskills' would come from, not level progression in the job necessarily. The skills gained from level/job progression would be mostly what cooldowns(like 2.0s cross class skills but less restrictive) and traits[like equip 2 handed weapons, or equip 2 weapons]). Started off with 8 disciples of war, and 8 disciples of magic. Made over 44 jobs from combinations.

[Volsungr]

Playing off the ST vs AOE categories in the OP, they could even have chains.

The Knife > Blood Drain > Final sting combo is a good one. Thematic and logically goes together.

or AoE

Bomb Toss > Fire Agnon > Flamethrower (or Self Destruct)

And then they could change on some sort of elemental attunement.

Since i can't reply on all the FF11 matters as i didnt have much experience on it, i'll just try to highlight the thing i find interesting :P

i don't remember where i said my piece about combo system for caster but i agree because we don't have a caster that have combo-mechanic as its core yet. as for the melee combo.. the concern is will blue mage in that case take over a melee slot? but if that's the case do we still need a melee for the extra 1% dps boost in party bonus? or will it count as caster?.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

Post#52

Single Player Final Fantasy is very different to a Massive Multiplayer Online Final Fantasy. Of course they aren't a reliable main tank or healer in the FF series (Mainly Single Player), because there is no such thing as Roles in those games (Other than saying which is which in your head), you had to know which job can hold aggro, which can do tons of damage and which can heal. Same can be applied to FFXI, there is no role assignment or a strict role; the only other way to identify is through what job does what. FFXI is a fine example to take inspiration from and there is nothing dangerous about it. We are looking Blue Mage as a whole not with a sub job (We can ignore the sub job aspect as it is not present in FFXIV), we are looking at how they have constructed to fit Blue Mage into the game and really the only reason why Blue Mage is OP is mainly because of the gearset. Any class is OP with the right gear set. If they are naked (No armor or weapon) they are just as weak and similar to the other classes. FFXIV gear works differently as well, even as a Level 60 Blue Mage we use the Augmented Shire Philosopher set which is shared by all DPS Caster Class. So we can ignore the gears as they are two different things between FFXIV and FFXI. As for their balancing they added new spells, removed some from previous FF games and added ones that didn't even exist in past FF games.

All single player FF games (From 5 - 10) have Blue Mages but they are not a Main Tank or Healer but they are situational. Fair enough but this is an MMO, SMN and RDM can be in the same department as Blue Mage in terms of support utility with heals and buffs and debuffs. However Red Mage and Summoner are not all 3 roles, with Blue Mage it can be. With over 280+ spells in FFXI there is so many some of it even allow it to boost it defense up or outright mitigate damage; heal the entire party or remove statuses (For the record White Wind heals with (MaxHP/7)*2 which is far different from any of the single player Blue Mages' White Wind); dealing massive damage with both its own spells and weapon skill solo combos. There is even guides as how to tank as a Blue Mage or even how to heal as a Blue Mage (Though the healing guide is hard to find but it is doable with WHM being its sub job and with Magic Fruit (Cure IV) it can really be good at healing with the right gearset and at a cheaper cost than a normal Cure IV in FFXI and pair it with the Auto-Refresh Trait and you got yourself an infinite healer.). All of it is situational but it is very much so doable. I am not saying you didn't say that I am saying it to clear the record and the fact of the reason why people wanted it as a Multi-role Job.

People want it as a Multi-role because of FFXI. Sure in FFXIV it doesn't have to be a Multi-role job. Again, it can be pure DPS or it can be a multi-role. I am fine with either way as long they get rid of the limited job system and never do that again. Multi-role is not in the majority of the Blue Mages in the FF single player series but with FFXI being the only MMO with Blue Mage (Other than FFXIV) people tend to expect a repeat from the older games. Take something good from older games and make a better and improved version in the newer titles that is the expectation set for Blue Mage in FFXIV. The heart of the Blue Mage is literally as long it learns magic from monsters and it is versatile and really that is the heart of it and I don't mind if it was a Pure DPS or a Multi-role but just get rid of Limited Job is all I am saying is that I am suggesting ways it can be done. Versatile can just mean anything, but with FFXI it literally means taking up all 3 roles and having a variety of spells for different situations as it has a double meaning in FFXI. In single player games though it has one meaning different spells for different situations, there is only one meaning because there is no such thing as a role (mentioned in the game) and you'll have to figure out what each job does and what they are capable of. Plus the final nail on the coffin to seal it to be expected as a multi-role was Aetherial Mimicry and really they tried hard with the 5.15 update to make it doable with group play and yet it is still not perfect.

TL: DR

Single Player ideas ≠ Massive Multiplayer Online ideas, Single Player games have no such things as roles and can only guess at what job does what (Without a wiki or guide). Ignore Sub's job and gear as they are not the same as in FFXIV and only focus on how Blue Mage was made in FFXI. Any class in FFXI is op because of the gearset.

Agreed that in the Single Player FFs there is no main tank or heal. SMN and RDM can have much utility and support like BLU but cannot be all 3 roles whereas BLU can with the right gearset and spell set for tanking and healing which RDM and SMN doesn't have the option to change their spell set (In FFXI).

The need for multi-role by many is because of FFXI and with Aetherial Mimicry reinforcing that it can multi-role in FFXIV. I don't mind if it can be a pure DPS or a multi-role, I just want Limited Job to be gone and never be repeated again. Versatility has 2 meanings in the MMO (In both role and spells) while in Single Player games it only has one meaning (Spells only).


WoW Comparison

Stop comparing FF to WoW Classes; they are objectively different. Their move set changes every time you change your job spec, you have to get different gear for each spec because of the stats. Plus they are only a main healer when you set your spec to restoration, you can easily change from restoration to guardian and become a main tank. For the record every class and spec have normal DPS because everyone has to DPS while either they tank or heal. Seriously that is what is happening with MMOs nowadays everyone including Tanks and Healers have to DPS they may not be as strong as a DPS but they have to. As for Restoration with normal tanking, they don't have the added enmity as that will only apply when they become a guardian druid and when their kit changes so that their moves generate aggro. Also in WoW we have a class/spec tree and in FFXIV we don't as the games work very differently in terms of job traits and kit.

If we're gonna relate Blue Mage and Druid, we can't because Blue Mage right now is a DPS role and can do everything ranging from Main/Second Tank, Healing and DPS. All the player needs to do is change the spell kit, for tanking we have... The Look, Ice Spikes, Veil of the Whorl, Diamondback, Mighty Guard, Devour, Frog Legs & Cactguard and if you want to go far fetched Gobskin (Though it is better when it has Aetherial Mimicry: Healer). The rest of the spells can be just about anything, with what I have given that leaves 16 more slots left. For the optimized DPS rotation you need Bristle, Off-Guard/Peculiar Light, Moonflute, Song of Torment, Magic Hammer, J Kick, Eruption, Devour, Shock Strike, Surpanakha and Glass dance which leaves with 6 more slots (not going to repeat for devour). So we can fill that in with Angel Whisper, White Wind, Bomb Toss, Flying Sardine, Final Sting and Aetherial Mimicry. Plus Veil of the Whorl and Ice Spikes are rarely used by tanks so it can be replaced with something else leaving 2 more slots to be used/replaced.

Now we encounter a problem where it can do everything with this spell kit. Funny how it is not the same with Druid in WoW. Where you have to change specs and get different separate gear for each spec, each spec tree has only 3 different options. Blue Mage? Nah we only need Augmented Shire Philosopher set and we can fight with this one kit and excel at just about every role and we have an unlimited option of spells with 24 active spells as our hard limit... Hence why I go back to saying Aetherial Mimicry is one way of balancing it so that they are forced to take in spells more related to the roles. In 5.4 there could be more healing and tanking spells and if that were the case they can multi-role and prevent the hybrid roles and forcing players choosing 1 role to play in group content and excelling at that one role, while in solo content they can have whatever kit they want to have and bring it to Deep Dungeons, Eureka, Treasure Hunt Dungeons, Bozja, Squadron and Masked Carnival. Another reason why I think a Job Gauge is really needed especially when the build up gauge is being used universally with almost every job is that it can work in tandem with Aetherial Mimicry when you have a certain amount of points it can boost a spell. Also you can't play all roles in FFXI not especially when you are doing high end content, where you want to maximize specific traits for specific build and gear sets for Blue Mage there are two main types of set, AoE Nuking and DD. They already solved their balancing issue and nowadays it's SoA (Seeker of Adoulin) and Ambuscade content that brings in high-tier content. You can multi-role (Doing all roles at the same time) but you'll just be pissing people off, because people expect Blue Mages in FFXI to have a DD set already for high end content (Alongside having Almace and Tizona). So pick one role and stick with it as you can either go in as a Healer, Tank, DD or Support (As traits need to be maximized). If you want another multi-role job look no further with Rune fencer and Geomancer, I can be a Support Healer as a Geomancer (When they are actually meant to be a DPS Support). Rune Fencer can be both DPS and Tank but still have to pick one role or the other when doing group content. Another thing unlike FFXIV in FFXI you can swap gears mid battle, hence why it is essential when you play in FFXI you have to learn to gear swap with macros. FFXIV allows you to swap gears during battle back in 2.0 but now you can't anymore after a patch in ARR.

TL: DR

FFXIV Jobs ≠ WoW Classes and Specs, stop trying to relate or compare the two.

Blue Mage ≠ Druid, Monk and Paladin. Blue Mage kit and be freely changed; WoW's Paladin, Druid, Monk can be freely changed but not like Blue Mage and can only be changed through changing their specs and their spec trees and it is much more limited than Blue Mage.

Blue Mage with 24 spells slots can main all 3 roles with 2 spare slots. 5.4 could possibly introduce more spells for Tanking and Healing as a Blue Mage. Only do one role when participating in FFXI's High end content otherwise you piss people off regardless of the job. Gear swapping is crucial in FFXI while in FFXIV you can do that and the game works differently.

[Shougun]

. . .

They had jobs that took damage in single player games, like Paladin with cover. OR jobs that took abuse better (and so were tanky like, like dragoon was sort of if you got hit by a physical attack or you weren't using jump- which means it was more a bruiser than a tank as it wasn't the focus but something it branched into a little bit).

There is absolutely a way to translate a job's general focus from a single player to multiplayer. Otherwise again you'd consider white mage a tank because it could cast stoneskin and that could tank, so eeehy you can make white mage a tank and white mage has always been 'multi-role' (which is incorrect, white mage has had good damage spells, and some good damage reduction spells, but it's clearly a healer).

Blue Mage had some damage reduction spells but it never had tank status (without FFXI), the damage reduction spells also were not on self but applied to the party / target (like vanish or mighty guard). Blue mage reduced damage via buffs, not by soaking it to the face with superior hp pool. And even if you could reduce damage enough so blue felt tanky like then it meant your actual jobs focused more on taking damage would therefore also feel more tanky (mighty guard on Paladin > mighty guard on blue mage).

You keep bringing up FFXI but even with all 280 spells without the sub job system and flexible gear system blue mage was still very obviously a damage dealer with support skills. Only because of those two systems which we do not have, and are not core parts of blue mage, that you could make something like a main heal blue. Otherwise main heal blue was pretty terrible in comparison to a white mage.

We do not have sub job system. We do not have flexible gear. We only have the main job. Main job blue in FFXI with inflexible gear and no sub job would never be a main heal candidate.

As for your gripe about WoW I am cognizant WoW is not FFXIV, it was to show you a job (druid) that is highly versatile but focused on a specific goal is not main in those other goals just because they're abnormally good at them.

Further the example is pretty good since like FFXI blue WoW druid set to a specific set has high variety but is focused on one task. Until you add weird items and sub job can you switch your druid spec, figuratively speaking. I'm not sure where you're having so much trouble seeing the relationship of changing your kit and gear in FFXI to changing your kit and gear in WoW- literally both jobs have to do this to change their roles. You WILL NEVER be a main healer blue if you left your DD gear and DD kit on in blue. You will also never be a main healer in WoW if you've your tank gear and tank spec on. Changing your spec is akin to changing your sub job, changing your gear is akin to .. changing your gear. The comparison is easy and clear, I've no idea where you could have a hiccup in that.

Blue Mage has abnormally good support, JUST like Summoner and Red Mage, that doesn't make those jobs all three roles at once. Only in games that allowed combinations was blue actually another role. At any moment you couldn't do that then blue wasn't. Blue in the single player games is just like a Druid specced to a specific talent tree, decent at all three tasks but only good at one (this makes them main on only one thing, they're not all three roles all at once). In a general sense I'd say Summoner was better at diversity than Blue Mage since Summoner's tend to be far more consistent (it's going to heal well, not it might so long as your blue doesn't get slapped first, etc).

Similarly FFXI was the first time Blue Mage had kit building, because one game made a new concept doesn't make it the core of the job now. If you take blue mage as a whole cross the FF series blue mage isn't about kit building. It's possible they want to change that though, but speaking generally this isn't required and frankly at this moment seems like a great way to lower the quality of gameplay (because DD blue is only vaguely similar to actual jobs at similar levels in terms of quality mechanics, while say tank is massively worse, and healer seems to be of interest simply because they removed the damage skills from our actual healers- else it would be worse too).

The many reasons that made Blue multi role in FFXI is also what made other jobs multi role too, never before that was blue mage truly multi role. It wasn't blue that did that, it was the gear and sub job system. Other jobs got to multi-role at the benefit of that system too. If you took away those two systems in FFXI, that are not related to blue, then blue cannot multi-role anymore. Like how in the single player games blue was supplemental and istuaional healer / defensive support (via buffs, not actual tanking, unlike some jobs that had the big hp pools).

FFXIV is honestly the first version of blue that can actually multi-role on it's own without help from other systems. Which is fine, to the first point I made to you it's not like they can't do that concept, but when asking for normal I find it irrelevant to having a blue experience for it to also be able to multi-role in normal content. Normal blue that was just a offensive support would be just like the blue mages that existed before it (even FFXI, because without sub jobs and diverse gear which we don't have BLU doesn't get to multi-role, he's offensive support). If it happens (three role normal blue), and is actually fun, cool (though with the state of the system currently I am not impressed with what they achieved and so I have my doubts, only DD role blue gets near a normal job in terms of mechanical quality). If it doesn't happen and they make normal only one role (and limited can be how it is or whatever), then also fine.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

...

There is a way, but translating what job is what role in an MMO is not my point, I said "there is no such thing as Roles in those games" meaning there is no ROLE/ROLE ASSIGNMENT in a single player game, meaning you had to guess what each job does without a guide. When it comes to FFXI there is no roles like FFXIV, without a guide you have to figure it out what job does what and from there people can take a guess or what. Which thankfully with your example is the reason why in modern MMOs we have roles it is to clarify new players that are introduced to the series for the first time to know what job is a tank, healer and DPS. FFXI acts like a single player game with group content obviously you have to figure out what White Mage does and really it is not a multi-role, only reason why it would have good damage and mitigation is so that it can do some of the old content alone (If possible).

On your third paragraph I was talking about FFXI and there is no tank stance in FFXI for Blue Mage. When I say they have all sorts of mitigation I only mean FFXI and not the single player games. When have I mentioned the single player games other than when I was talking about roles.

Your point being? Each of the paragraph in the post I made are separate points... You had literally mixed paragraph 1 with paragraph 2. I said ignoring Sub job and gear all of the jobs in FFXI the jobs would have been weak or similar to one another. So you now want me to put into bullet points when I clearly separate the paragraphs for a reason.

You were clearly comparing WoW's Druid to FFXIV's Blue Mage and I was answering to that. Now you are going off tangent implying I am comparing FFXI's Blue Mage to WoW's Druid, can you stop twisting my points please and stay on topic? Even in the tl;dr I said "FFXIV Jobs ≠ WoW Classes and Specs". I said it can all do 3 roles at the same time in FFXIV with 1 kit and it acts differently to WoW's druid. I have not made a comparison between FFXI's Blue Mage and WoW's Druid. You wanna compare it with FFXI's Blue Mage and WoW's Druid that is fine by me, but in the previous and past posts with you (interacting with me). We were comparing it to FFXIV's Blue Mage not FFXI's Blue Mage.

I said they are all 3 roles at once in FFXIV, when they have the kit I have just shown in my post. "If we're gonna relate Blue Mage and Druid, we can't because Blue Mage right now is a DPS role and can do everything ranging from Main/Second Tank, Healing and DPS. All the player needs to do is change the spell kit, for tanking we have... The Look, Ice Spikes, Veil of the Whorl, Diamondback, Mighty Guard, Devour, Frog Legs & Cactguard and if you want to go far fetched Gobskin (Though it is better when it has Aetherial Mimicry: Healer). The rest of the spells can be just about anything, with what I have given that leaves 16 more slots left. For the optimized DPS rotation you need Bristle, Off-Guard/Peculiar Light, Moonflute, Song of Torment, Magic Hammer, J Kick, Eruption, Devour, Shock Strike, Surpanakha and Glass dance which leaves with 6 more slots (not going to repeat for devour). So we can fill that in with Angel Whisper, White Wind, Bomb Toss, Flying Sardine, Final Sting and Aetherial Mimicry. Plus Veil of the Whorl and Ice Spikes are rarely used by tanks so it can be replaced with something else leaving 2 more slots to be used/replaced.".

I didn't say it FFXI made versatility the core of it. I said it made people have expectations. There is a hard difference between expectations and core, nowhere in my posts says or imply that multi-role is the core of Blue Mage. Not just that but I also said it made FFXI had two meanings which then lead to people having a different expectation of it compared to the Single Player series. Also in single player games there was no kit build but FFXI has kit building. It is like people were having expectations from the FFXI's Blue Mage rather than the single player games. That is where it all started, FFXI's Blue Mage has set a standard of expectation for a Blue Mage in an MMO. Single Player games did not but FFXI has set the precedent and standard of expectation for fans to expect what Blue Mage will be like in an MMO or in future MMOs related to the FF series.

It never was a multi-role in the first place, but with how players created Blue Mage in FFXI, it became an iconic multi-role job in FFXI which then snowballed into people having high expectations of the job being a multi-role in future MMOs.

They can be multi-role or pure DPS job in normal content, there is no doubt about that. However that isn't my opinion, my opinion is that it can either be a pure DPS or a Multi-role job as long we don't have to see or use limited job ever again.

[Shougun]

. . ..

No ignoring sub jobs and items all jobs would definitely not be the similar to each other. . Each job in FFXI had a clear goal that may or may have not been horribly balanced lol. Then with the gear and sub jobs there were many ways to change the job to fit your needs. Ninja without a sub job was not a Red Mage without a sub job which was not a Black Mage nor a Ranger nor a Paladin.

Role assignments in single player game weren't clear made by the developers but they absolutely existed under design philosophy (else we wouldn't be able to describe them into roles so neatly like pretty much all the wiki's do on jobs). Even if you washed it out a bit the point still stands the blue mage did not 'do it all well' such that it counted as a multi-role (it wasn't multi-role till other systems in FFXI allowed it to be, and this wasn't due to blue mage but the other systems). Blue mage did damage fairly well and healing situationally and support (not tanking) pretty well.

Blue Mage has had versatility sure, but it's not until FFXIV that it actually multi-roled on it's own laurels. Blue Mage in FFXI was only good at doing other roles due to other systems, otherwise it was a damage dealer with a bit of variety on the side. I would accept that you say "so most of our jobs are kind of like that with their own flare" and yeah look at our current job break down, we've got 4 tanks and 3 healers and the rest of the jobs are variations of DD lol.

The point is FFXI's blue is not a multi-role job without the sub job system, and at that point many other jobs were also multi-role. BLU in and of itself in FFXI was not multi-role, people would tell you to get lost if you came with BLU as a healer if there was no sub job to support it's short comings (meanwhile white mage would be allowed in). Translating FFXI's BLU here and making it multi-role means you're also expanding the concept of BLU (which some may consider an upgrade). So if people expect that blue mage has to multi-role then they're conflating multiple systems into one job, and my point is blue mage historically and generally is not a multi-role job on it's own.

This entire conversation was started because you wanted to correct me on the idea that Blue Mage historically is not the role/concept I said it was, which through the entire history of blue until this game was clearly an offensive support job because they'd be laughed out of groups (and not used in single player) for main taking the role of healer or tank (concepts that did exist, particularly main healer, main tank was more like main dude that would survive through insane abuse just in case you needed to raise or something, or Paladin with cover). You may say but "versatility" and yeah I agree to that but versatility does not mean multi-role job. Just because you can offer some support doesn't make you a healer, you need many skills to do that. Of course with FFXIV it's the first time it is under the limited system at least, you may say this is a new page in the history for Blue Mage, a glorious page where we should be, where the new intention is multi-role. Personally if they can't make the job more exciting I don't think it was worth it though, would much rather have a well designed single role than one okay, one eh, and one bad normal job.

And that's where I started with this is that I don't see normal blue having to be multi-role to be the iconic and that personally I've far greater hope in blue if they focus on making it a single role (because if they translate their current set up to normal I've a feeling it's going to be awful for a role or two and in general less interesting than it could have been if they just designed the kit straight forward rather than play either god in balance to have real kit building or pseudo kit building for easy balance). Happy to leave the balanced for party experience limited multi-role concept alone, but I've no faith in it for DF content (or in general).

Finally I'm not twisting your points. You're just fitting my point to something I didn't say (when discussing FFXIV vs Druid I speak different than when FFXI vs Druid, or in general, the stationary value of Druid is nice as it has many similar concepts and when points are irrelevant, like in FFXIV i'm aware our armor is rigid so I don't think of gear in that situation, then the comparison works well for me visually). You said stop comparing WoW to FFs, that's FF in general (and at this point I've compared every blue mage to Druid). I responded to your points out of order simply because it's how I recalled them. Why I didn't go point by point is because I find the whole conversation kind of silly, never disagreed that the job can or can't be multi just that there is an obvious position blue mage fills and that isn't multi-role until FFXIV (even FFXI, as it was only multi-role due to other systems, else it would be laughed out of the other roles filled by jobs that actually were designed around the concept). I said like WoW you could have a FFXIV Blue Mage that just has specs (Atherial Mimicry), this is true, there are some differences naturally like gear but whatever it wasn't something I cared about focusing on (due to how gear works here, and how blue already works here, I thought it not important to point to discuss). The point was that it worked in WoW (sometimes). I understand your point is you can have all the specs without changing the gear, that point wasn't important to me for FFXIV. Then we discussed FFXI and which case it's almost literally like WoW (where the trees are set sub jobs of the main job) then where with the spec and gear you get to pick your role but you're losing out on other things. In either situation comparing to WoW is suitable and functions to what I intended. (A real world example with some vague similarities, like Blue Mage has shifting abilities so does druid- druid just has way less options, but they do shift). Especially as it illustrates that the druid has diversity but a focus. In past FF Blue Mage has always been a specific type of Druid with a specific focus, and has not been able to switch roles just because. As soon as you add in FFXI where it wasn't due to the blue mage but due to the systems unrelated to blue mage, then you can start to say Blue Mage began being able to switch specs (and had to change their gear too). But this multi-role FFXI blue mage wasn't due to blue mage's own list of skills, without the sub jobs it would have failed to multi-role (unlike Druid I guess, which on it's own talents it could). Then FFXIV is unique in that blue mage on blue mage's own talents can now multi-role, which besides having to change your gear is exceptionally close to druid again. And druid does get new and different abilities based on their spec and form they're in which is akin to a kit for Blue Mage (just don't get to pick it really lol).


Ultimate point to me is that while people may find it nice for it to be multi-role, Blue Mage has never been a multi-role job in history (Blu != main healer, BLU / WHM = main healer), and that you can evaluate single player jobs for their role even if the devs didn't specifically say what it was (all the jobs had a unique purpose that made them proficient at a specific concept, like situationally blue mage could heal sure but they were awful if you wanted to depend on them for everything, something had to make up for their short comings, something you don't have to do for jobs made for their role), including FFXI, until FFXIV came around (blue mage in FFXIV, currently as limited, can do it all, although their raise is still awful lol). And if they added normal to blue mage and it was just one role, it would still be blue mage. They could add more than one role to it as normal, though due to my negative impressions of what they've done so far I would prefer they just make it good and high quality on one job than "eh tier" on everything. If they can make it high quality on all three, and it doesn't consume so much resources we start losing other jobs, .. well that's cool and preferential (but sounds hard/unlikely).

Point from the very beginning that started this all, blue mage while versatile has had a clear focus and it wasn't every role and to add a normal blue that is only one role is totally fine.

[Lauront]

I'd much rather they added a different spellcaster. BLU is what it is, and I'm not that fond of it as a concept, so I am hoping we get a shiny new caster in 6.0 I actually enjoy, alongside BLM and SMN.