SUGGESTION: Turn Bluemage into a regular job - Limited Job>Advanced Job (An Approach)

[Alysella]

It is what it is. Every roles have their own things to do. It's about balancing it right for blue mage to be able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" while not being too overpowered.

[Volsungr]

It is what it is. Every roles have their own things to do. It's about balancing it right for blue mage to be able to fulfill the "jack of all trades" while not being too overpowered.

if it's can be done with RDM and their vercure/verraise dps/healer hybrid, it can be done to BLU as well. and RDM is not OP right? in fact it is anything but. Solo contents, maybe. but that's to be expected for hybrid classes. we can also make bluemage strong in solo content but wont be as useful in raid because the nature of "job gauge being used in both dpsing and healing". so you can't just spam healing, because your dps will be low.

[Alysella]

if it's can be done with RDM and their vercure/verraise dps/healer hybrid, it can be done to BLU as well. and RDM is not OP right? in fact it is anything but. Solo contents, maybe. but that's to be expected for hybrid classes. we can also make bluemage strong in solo content but wont be as useful in raid because the nature of "job gauge being used in both dpsing and healing". so you can't just spam healing, because your dps will be low.

Hmm. You are right. They done it with RDM so it's doable with BLU. But i don't think they are going to make something similar even if they want to do it. BLU needs its own uniqueness and playstyle to fit into the job description while maintaining their role in normal party.

[SigmaOZ]

@OP


Yes!.


Blue Mage is wasted as a Limited Job, why did they bother with it from the beginning!?.


In any case I feel the "limited" has matured enough to become a "regular" job now, it would definitely attract more players to take on the Blue!.

[Volsungr]

Hmm. You are right. They done it with RDM so it's doable with BLU. But i don't think they are going to make something similar even if they want to do it. BLU needs its own uniqueness and playstyle to fit into the job description while maintaining their role in normal party.

ah yes definitely didnt mean they have to do the same. just pointing out that it's perfectly fine to have jack of all trades and people would still play it. proper rdm will still use their vercure and/or verraise should the need arise, so bluemage with their many skills can have the same functionality where players get to choose what to use depends on what situation. the question is how much hybrid is too much? bluemage literally can do a little bit of everything, after all.

[MaraD_]

ah yes definitely didnt mean they have to do the same. just pointing out that it's perfectly fine to have jack of all trades and people would still play it. proper rdm will still use their vercure and/or verraise should the need arise, so bluemage with their many skills can have the same functionality where players get to choose what to use depends on what situation. the question is how much hybrid is too much? bluemage literally can do a little bit of everything, after all.

How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

[ADVSS]

How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

To be fair, and i agree with you, but using AM and say mighty guard, is way inferior to a tank using tank stance(75% attack power reduction for 20% defense and increased enmity), as well as am and pom cure/exuviation/gobskin, is nothing compared to a dedicated healer. WW could still be kept and put on a cd timer like angel whisper, and that would immediate shut down BLU chances at overshadowing even RDM at this point(also think WW is a trap spell personally, but eh it has its uses, its just fundamentally a bad spell that cost as much as a raise imo and its best use is when its blatantly overhealing the party). A restrictive raise, and bomb heal, but only before massive raid damage, or after moderate raid damage, isnt really going to step on any roles toes, it just may be slightly more supporty than rdm though, if AM simply just became a stance that gave BLU all 3 abilities, instead of one role one, to replace missing traits other casters, healers otherwise get for those level gaps.

EDIT: So after some thinking, i could see them streamlining useful abilities, as a dedicated dps without too much fuss honestly. They could just have BLU keep its utility skills like gobskin/exuviation, and keep AM as well as giving it all 3 traits as either a stance you turn on/off(boring) or
Give AM the Enochian treatment, maybe have the bigger spells activate upon it being activated, have an easier way of maintaining it in combat, sort of like RDM, but have the combos less randomized/proc based like BLM(ezception being thunder procs) Set the job guage around maintaining AM, but less severe than BLM(if you even call it severe now a days) as the combo spells will be pretty straight forward. Use gauge like RDM for burst spells like shock srtike, etc.

[MaraD_]

if AM simply just became a stance that gave BLU all 3 abilities, instead of one role one, to replace missing traits other casters, healers otherwise get for those level gaps.

I can mostly agree with what you're saying, but I feel the need to elaborate on how I imagine it could have been done. (I know, everyone, including me, thinks they have the solution...)
(The following is based on a blank slate design)
IMO, the spells should come with... (for lack of a better word) "role stats". Not the usual stats, but ones that are only seen in the ability select menu, and they ONLY effect blue mage spell cast time/effectiveness, and not primary stats. They pump eachother up, based on being of "the same type", or Hinder ones of "opposing types".

Also, have a BUNCH of neutral weaker spells, which dont fall into a category, so they cant hinder, or buff the spells you pick. (essentially filler moves, or ones that are decent for tanking/healing, since this is where most of their DPS come from, w/o hindering thier tanking/healing)
(IMO Cast time is the most effective way to do this. Make the cast times to exceed the GCD by default, except neutral spells, so that you KNOW its a DPS loss to use the wrong spell type, but if the emergency is big enough, it may be worth it. Only by stacking spells that lower the GCD, can you reach the basic GCD cast times, or even lower, to help weave in oGCDs)

Obviously theres so many spells already made, that this system would be a lot of work, to rebalance everything, but its a starting point imo.
The idea is mostly based on how BLM, SMN, and RDM are balanced to eachother. (BRD thrown in for example)
Selfish DPS spells stacked together increase DPS (BLM build). Supportive DPS buffs decrease self DPS (BRD build). Minor Healing option lightly hurts DPS (ex:SMN with rez). Large healing utility hurts DPS a lot (RDM build).
Going from DPS to tank, in case both tanks go down, or going full healer, in case healers go down, is good enough, even with penalties. But you need to decide before the fight, if you want to be a pseudo tank, who can only hold the boss for 30seconds if the tank goes down, or if you want to put all of your abilities into tanking abilities, to try and off tank/tank swap as a full time replacement tank, because tanks arent showing up in party finder, or your raid groups tank had to drop out for the night. This would be more than acceptable, because both possibilities are there.
I do understand why you said they should have more abilities attached to the tank stance, but i disagree, if your threat is relatively close to the other DPS, and you pop tank stance, you should be main threat in like 1-2 GCDs (if they made the stance reasonable), and be able to take auto attacks fine. Tank busters are where you're going to have an issue, but a "temp tank" isnt meant to fully main tank for long periods, just for short bursts, until the situation is under control. (which in most cases, a tank buster shouldnt be coming out after a tank just died, as the tank probably died to a tank buster in the 1st place.)

EDIT: I also feel there should be 3 DPS styles, but thats going too far in having SE trying to balance one job. (Melee, Cast Range, instant cast range, each with their DPS penalties, depending on ease of use)

[Shougun]

How much is too much? Technically the real answer would be "when it replaces actual tanks/healers, and locks them out of party finders".
But the easiest way to handle it, would be to balance BLU based on its DPS role. After that, any tanking/healing options are intentionally undertuned (not equally balanced with current tanks/healers) This way if you're doing lesser content, the BLU can fill in the role of healer/tank for premades. It could even be possible in easier EX trials, if people are good enough/geared enough to make up the difference. But ideally you want an actual healer/tank job to fill that role, so this is only for desperation, rather than efficiency. (this of course requires a lot of changes to BLU tanking/healing, even DPS honestly)

By doing this, 4man BLU dungeons still function the same way they do now. You have to go in as a premade. But this also allows for normal gameplay. (Im still partial to having BLUs get most of their EXP outside of dungeons, and mostly running dungeons for spells/gear, rather than for good exp. its just nice flavor to this job, plus its faster leveling can make up for the fact it has to hunt down spells, which is where most of the grind actually is.)

Stereotypically most of blue mage is damage and or other means of incapacitating the foe, in the history of blue mage spells most did something offensive "stereotypically" - so just having a few weird non-damage related spells (support), and a number of quirky damage skills, I believe would be enough (damage, damage / support, being a role that blue mage natively slots into). Of course they have some weird spells, but in a technical sense many other jobs often get weird skills too just not as early and sometimes as many, but like gil toss on Samurai, or reflect on white mage, or the break spells that were hyper effective sometimes, or you say white mage is a healer but they do later get powerful damage spells or can wreck the dead in some cases, it's not like blue mage is the only thing ever get weird or extremely effective stuff, also on a related note when people say blue mage needs a huge book or if not then it's not blue that I get a little cross eyed because in the situation blue mage had a huge list so did pretty much every other job (and the situation it had a small list, then again so did most other jobs, but there are games where blue list is tiny but other magic lists are huge), big list or weird spells not exclusive to blue (a huge list of useful spells sounds cool though, specially on the limited side, but a huge list of mostly useless spells sounds mostly useless lol), blue mage did tend to be a bit a bit consistent with weird with pacing though (getting a weird spell sooner than other jobs but then also have moments where they were utterly useless, lol), but occasionally true for certain summons by effect or usefulness by the end of the game or specific other jobs (just on average blue seemed to be like "oh yeah and here is a spell that is going to make the next hour really easy, and then it's going to be totally useless for the hour after that and then it'll be useful again for a while, but then not XD). In a general sense I think offensive support is a good slot as it covers many of their quirks but also covers the main duty that tended to have theme'd into their job..

Although.. I still think that blue mage would have made a great candidate for tank, assuming it was built that was from the ground up, the current blue tank that we have in game is not what I mean lol (as the hyper forced trinity, overly balanced, undertuned, tank blue mage is, I wouldn't call as nearly as exciting as playing an actual tank job; although, healer blue is a bit more exciting since you get a lot more damage spells lol, unlike our actual healer jobs currently XD).

But in terms of 'too much?' and premades vs DF I don't think you have to undertune blue- especially if you made limited (which I think is important, to not remove the limited side) and normal a flip of the job stone, then you might have a few skills change a bit depending on which side you're using, in this way you could make aetherial mimicry a different spell based on limited or normal and just from that the rest of the issues are gone (a concept that might sound strange until you consider every combat job in this game besides blue mage does this when you enter PvP, this is something SE has done already in a sense). Limited blues could tank but you'd not have issues with it joining DF and messing things up. Normal blue couldn't tank because it would either not have access to that skill or the skill would behave a bit differently. I personally imagine having a set kit for DF blue being the most easiest form of balance and easily maintain a set of blue skills that feel the most blue like, while also keeping tight gameplay, but I do find reading the ideas of 'kit your own blue' that works in DF interesting to read. Like for example bad breath would be extremely easy to translate into DF, being basically Holy from white mage. I also think you could gain some value in the concept of blue mage having this sort of offensive support vibe with debuffs, but in situations where the debuffs fail (like pretty much all boss content) the debuffs would turn into a generic blue debuff that other spells could interact with (so you could say cast bad breath on a boss, gain 8 stacks of blue debuff since most were ignored and then use that stack to deal big damage or other actives like perhaps white wind needs to consume X debuffs and use your job gauge). That way when blue mage fails their offensive support aspect their concession is they'll just deal more damage instead (because mechanics that interact with debuffs would take the generic blue debuff and do more with it, like a fester like spell might deal 55 potency per debuff but 75 per generic blue debuff).

Depending on what you do even some of the crazier skills could be fine too, like Doom basically already doesn't work on most bosses and so you could just finish that theme- when in DF content, and either keep it extra weird by saying like Hallowed Ground like cooldown timer but will straight up kill trash and deal big damage to bosses or maybe you might make it cast more often but a bit more balanced. Like doom adds a debuff to monsters that causes them to take increased damage (works on bosses), if the monster dies under doom then the cooldown on doom is reduced, else at the end of doom it will either kill any non-boss related content if below 50% health or deal significant potency damage at the end (and go on the full cooldown in either situation). Now you've an example where doom is more useful than it is even currently yet doom is also not entirely different spell, and it's also more reliable (in either example, you know if it'll work or not and spam praying isn't a thing - man... I really dislike miss spamming stuff lol). Going back to the above on White Wind you might think then if it requires using your gauge and debuffs that you'll be really hurting your damage to do so, this already begins to self balance blue, add some cooldowns to it and you're already on your way to a situation where like Paladin the heal is for the most niche situations and you should never really be using it. Or simply change White Wind when you're in DF mode such that it's a HUGE cure but more consistently useful and at the same time balanced, like for example white wind may cure yourself for 600 potency, and then heals all allies nearby for your current health total equally divided + 200 potency (add cooldown and some sort of preventative cost). Now white wind is more consistently useful (rather than over curing all the time like ADVSS said) and at the same time more balanced since you'd have a clear maximum of healing that would be less crazy than max healing every person because you happened to be max health and yet still have a lot of the heart and soul of white wind (although obviously not entirely. . . ).

You may do something too where you give blue mage this sort of 'oh my lord' moment utility but they share the same tree, so your tank skills and your heal skills would not only reduce your damage output but they're also in the shared boat. Temporarily you might cover your skin in the shell of mighty guard but you're no longer casting white wind (which could either be due to shared cooldown or simply they both cost too much of your gauge / mp to do something like that). There are a number of solutions to where you could leave blue mage some really long reaching arms in terms of diverse 'worse case scenario' options while making their normal status something entirely balanced within similar means of other jobs. Like Red Mage whose worst case scenario of handing out raises like candy, but honestly should never be the standard activity cause.. 'that's bad' lol. So while Red Mage can raise your whole party blue mage might have some more stronger diversity options but not as much long lasting choices, like blue mage could dump an insanely impressive heal and.. that was it. If that didn't help well.. everyone is going to die lol, meanwhile red mage would cast raise AGAIN, and vercure, AGAIN. I shouldn't say it like "not a concern" because balance is always concerning lol, but I believe you can find a place where it feels both unique but also not so powerful that other jobs are awful in comparison, of course there will always be flavor of the month no matter what, but like currently you'll see people go as the job they want because they wanted to even if "x" was probably going to add a bit more utility for whatever reason.

Personally I think for the tanking side you would give blue mage a spell they could cast on self or others, like mighty guard, so you may use it on a tank in an "oh god" situation if your healer was down (but your damage would suffer, so choose wisely), or on yourself if you were the target (but you'd not be able to steal enmity as a DF blue so there would not be a situation where people set you up to tank, and even if they wanted to abuse your mighty guard it would still be on the actual tanks and not you).

If you wanted you could even give blue mage Angel Whisper in DF setting with a cooldown where it lasts for a set duration and if nothing happens will cure the target and if they die while under the effect then they'll be instantly revived instead (as if raise was cast on them). Making their raise unique but also limited in scope compared to Red Mage or other jobs where they can spam it. Which would help justify their other quirks and perhaps also their damage not being slapped too hard for the breadth of options they have but the limited endurance of said options (allowing themselves distance from red mage as well, since your burst of support is good but not really the length of it).

Other thoughts might begin to crop up depending on how you approach stuff, just for example with Summoner I thought it would be nice if Titan got a lot of his tanky vibes back by getting his health bar again (summoned with health automatically, maybe has an mp cost that increases if you recast him too quickly within a time limit for balance) but he'll cover the summoner and so all the targets and damage is still done to the summoner (and titan wouldn't be granting summoner the insane aoe damage reduction he used to have). In this way for a short moment summoner might provide this feeling of tankyness, certainly in the open world, but it would be short lived in dungeons (due to not having all the defense) and also be at the cost of their damage. Meanwhile another example was on a transformation job I'd love to see in the game (the concept of transformations, on a job I can main... or at least a very OP solo focused limited job, god please no to pf exclusive focused.. I really don't want that for another dream job I was hoping for lol). Here the job would have a bruiser form that would temporarily grant them tanky like abilities such as reducing damage or self healing themselves while attacking, perhaps a mechanic that reduces the max amount of damage they take (exception for some boss mechanics), but as soon as their abilities and charged passives were used up they'd quickly become squishy. In situations of open world or unsyncing content and they can pace out the abilities slower they'd feel veeerrryyy tanky for a DD job, but in any situation that they were synced the tanky status would be short lived because mechanically it couldn't sustain for that long (for 30 whole seconds you held a boss, good on you! lol, also no enmity stealing spells).

Anyway, I think hybrid DF would be akin to Red Mage but in shorter bursts. With the balance being around about Red Mage too, except perhaps with the failsafe that when their debuffs start failing they deal more damage rather (which means they might deal a bit more damage than Red Mage but their sustained support wouldn't be as good, they could greatly temporarily help a situation but it wouldn't last as for long as a Red Mage could). I also feel that plays decently well with blue mage's role of carnival, sort of these acts they perform. "And here is my grand finale show" and you've got to buy another ticket to get the show again lol (also I think using the act concept can help balance and add mental flow to the more weird blue mage spells, by putting things into later acts or addendum performances that you only get to do every so often but they are your main performances). Limited blue can be more unrestricted and so they could, in a pre-made, get all the stuff they need to tank, heal, or whatever weird as can be.

Though on the topic of limited I kind of hope mimicry as a strict trinity spell goes away, and reintroduce the concepts through kit building instead, like glower may put you in a temporary state of increased enmity (temporary tank stance), the look double the enmity of the next spell, some new spell might deal extra damage based on the enmity generated from the attack, meanwhile you might even gain spells that dump your enmity for extra damage or support effects (so you might build enmity without the intention of tanking), a list of spells that allow you to step into the tank role without having your other skills strictly be trash because of it. Your healer situation would be like rather than a buff that says your heals either suck or don't you'd have situations like pom cure is a good cure but casting it consecutively will increase mp cost, so you'd want other cures but other cures would have their own thing like consumes enmity, has cooldown or charges, etc, can have fun with high mp cost spells too like a spell that makes your next offensive spell's cost become added potency and cost nothing (naturally this spell would need a cooldown lol), so your cure isn't garbage just because you didn't use a specific stance that makes other parts of your kit garbage lol, but also if you wanted to be 'the healer' you'd need multiple healing spells (yet your other spells are not told to go jump off a bridge because you set your role, conceptually, to healer). That all is starting to diverge into limited blue's issues, in my opinion, though.. and not making it normal (I wish for more of blue mage, if limited or at least "when limited", to be complex and powerful kit building that isn't necessarily so obvious and forced, meanwhile making each spell you obtain, as much as humanly possible, a spell that's cool and useful on its own but also interesting when considered part of a set).

[MaraD_]

Stereotypically most of blue mage is damage and or other means of incapacitating the foe, in the history of blue mage spells

While the BLU history lesson is "mostly" accurate, its still kind of misleading. But thats not really important to bring up imo, unless we're in a debate on "What does it truly mean to be a True Blue Mage?". (Which I find pointless 99% of the time to talk about, but ill mention it in the next bit anyways)

Although.. I still think that blue mage would have made a great candidate for tank, assuming it was built that was from the ground up

I absolutely agree. 2.0-3.0 pretty much gave tanks more spamable AoE options than most DPS, and even more easy to spam in 4.0 (not all dps, as BLM was truly able to infinitely spam AoE) and FF5 BLU was one of the few FF jobs that had a higher number of AoEs than single target options. (With SMN being another notable AoE job) I know this means nothing to SE, as 2.0 SMN wasnt amazing at AoE, but BLM, the single target nuker was the AoE DPS... But from a design standpoint, trying to keep job flavor, imo, it made sense to put the AoE job as a tank.
Next was how BLUs spells in FF5 used a variety of stats, but the number of spells which were determined by HP were higher than the number of spells determined by another stat. Followed by how BLUs had to have enough survival in which to take the hit and survive, in order to learn the spell. (So far all 3 of these reasons dont apply to every version of BLU) They also wore better armor than most back row jobs, putting them on par with most front row DPS, who could take the extra damage multiplier from being in the front row. (This isnt actually intended to be part of its "identity", but a balance issue. In future games, BLU has been seen being "back row only" as well) Of course buff spells/self heals helped them survive in the front row as well (and the other similar job RDM) But as you mentioned in the history of BLU, while they had more offensive options, they still had plenty of strong jack of all trades options (which they didnt need different elemental versions of heals, like they would need for nukes, so a singular heal option was fine) This leads into the argument of which role can actively fit all of these features reasonably? Using 2.0 WAR as an example, it does everything that a BLU could do. It can use heals, buff, debuff, dot, AoE (both cone, and circular). And could do so, w/o hindering their performance, unlike SMN/RDM who have to actively hinder their DPS to use raise/cures. So I agree, Tank seemed perfect. (Not to mention FFTAs BLU, which had "Damage MP" making it a far superior version to The Blackest Night, and in turn making BLUs unkillable in that game.)

a flip of the job stone

Honestly, youre following text is practically the same as to what everyone suggests, and functionally just a difference in name from what I said. I know the details can be different on a technical level, but if the outcomes is so similar, we might as well say its the same thing. (Not to say either of us is more correct in the way to deal with this hypothetical. Im mostly just saying we're already on the same boat.)

Other thoughts might begin to crop up depending on how you approach stuff, just for example with Summoner ...

Ive felt slightly similar as well, though maybe not on the exact details. (But another example would have been giving BLM "Death" like in other FFs, so BLU wasnt technically the only one. Along with other oldschool "potent" skills to their respective jobs, but in the same way, have limited uses, and mostly just for fun. (Rather than a limited "job", have "Limited skills" in a manner similar to "Role skills", where the skills on the list dont always work in instanced group content, or in limited amounts)

I kind of hope mimicry as a strict trinity spell goes away, and reintroduce the concepts through kit building instead

agreed.

The rest of this... I would agree about the complexity of making a build, if this was a game made just for you, me, and others like us. But all things considered, I think a more simplistic version would be better in the long run. I'd say you should still make a build, but I'd keep it easier to understand "what works with what" at an initial glance, w/o needing to test every combination. I still think spells should just be as simple as "Tank" "Healer" and "DPS" types. Stacking them is good. Using the UI to show a "bar" filling up when you stack same role type spells. The higher the bar goes, the better your performance will be in that role. Going half DPS and half tank, will show the bar barely go up, which makes it obvious you're going to have your performance hindered. (I measured hindrance based on cast time. Using Fire4 as an example, it takes longer to cast fire4, than the GCD. So you want to shorten the cast time. A BLU would want the bar filled, as the more its filled, the lower your cast time is, which this is a DPS increase. Also, if you lower it past the GCD, you can then safely weave in oGCDs w/o clipping. If you dont lower it enough, you still clip, but maybe your supportive options can help make up for the clipping.)