Could there be a relatively peaceful solution to the shard problem?

[Cilia]

Doubleposting here, sorry, but yes I think so. A world without war where everyone can settle conflicts because they can (Through the Echo) commune with each other's souls, which effectivley has infinite resources, where people live vastly longer and more fufilled lives, definitely sounds worth the cost when you compare it to the average quality of existence you'd be giving up.

A world that eventually went to war with itself despite everything being so much better compared to what exists today.

Hydaelyn may have been the one to sunder the world, but she's just the embodiment of an ideal.

[Iscah]

Doubleposting here, sorry, but yes I think so. A world without war where everyone can settle conflicts because they can (Through the Echo) commune with each other's souls, which effectivley has infinite resources, where people live vastly longer and more fufilled lives, definitely sounds worth the cost when you compare it to the average quality of existence you'd be giving up.

That's what we've been told about. We've been shown a glimpse of Amaurot but not the wider world. We don't know if the whole world is "perfect and peaceful" or if it's simply Amaurotine society that works that way.

Also there's nothing to say they had "more fulfilled" lives just because they lived longer. That's all relative anyway. And a whole life in a repressive conformist society might not be all that fulfilling to some people anyway.

And then there's the question of what "rewriting the laws of the star" did to it all and whether Emet's dreamed-of perfect world would even still exist if it remained unsundered.

[Rosenstrauch]

I wouldn't be surprised if the event that led to the Final Days was something none of the Ancients truly understood. The figments present in Emet-Selch's Amaurot are based on his own recollection, and all they have to say about it is that it started with a sound, and that it was as if the world had taken ill. They don't seem to know anything further than that, and if Emet-Selch himself knew, he didn't care to share that info. The recording of Venat and her followers only added to this, with their apparent belief that Zodiark hadn't done enough to prevent the Final Days from happening again, while their solution was to create a second god expressly for the purpose of sealing him away so he couldn't do more. In other words, their solution doesn't actually appear to address the problem, and given their dismissive attitude towards the Convocation, they come across as surprisingly arrogant and unthinking.

... and, of course, their solution to prevent the destruction of the world directly resulted in the destruction of their world, which is just icing on the tragedy cake. I really hope we haven't heard the end of all of this, 'cause Hydaelyn and/or Venat has a lot of explaining to do. Or apologizing, or both.

[Vyrerus]

I really hope we get to see the ancient world through another civilization's eyes at some point. Get to look at Amaurot through others' eyes. Cause the impression I got from it was that for all the security and wonder it had, it was repressive, particularly of the individual.

I also wonder if the shades we see when they are gentle and nonchalant about our individuality are just acting in accordance to how Emet-selch shaped them. As if he baked in the idea that they wouldn't be moved to anger or even sternness, merely inform us that we need to get the same robes and cloak up like we're supposed too.

Of course, to them, we appear as strange children. That, if nothing else, surely must have colored their interactions with us.

I don't think we know nearly enough about the Ancients or their world to know that we should want to revert to it.

[Kesey]

I wouldn't be surprised if the event that led to the Final Days was something none of the Ancients truly understood. The figments present in Emet-Selch's Amaurot are based on his own recollection, and all they have to say about it is that it started with a sound, and that it was as if the world had taken ill. They don't seem to know anything further than that, and if Emet-Selch himself knew, he didn't care to share that info. The recording of Venat and her followers only added to this, with their apparent belief that Zodiark hadn't done enough to prevent the Final Days from happening again, while their solution was to create a second god expressly for the purpose of sealing him away so he couldn't do more. In other words, their solution doesn't actually appear to address the problem, and given their dismissive attitude towards the Convocation, they come across as surprisingly arrogant and unthinking.

... and, of course, their solution to prevent the destruction of the world directly resulted in the destruction of their world, which is just icing on the tragedy cake. I really hope we haven't heard the end of all of this, 'cause Hydaelyn and/or Venat has a lot of explaining to do. Or apologizing, or both.

I don't think the followers of Venat were dismissive towards the Convocation, nor were they arrogant and unthinking. Its pretty clear that open debate and discussion were highly valued by Ancients of Amarout, yet Venat's followers confirm that the Convocation refuses to hear what they have to say about the summoning of Zodiark. Venat's followers feel backed into a corner, post-Zodiark but before Hydaelyn, because the Convocation had become tempered to Zodiark, literally forgoing a pillar of their civilization--debate and discussion--to stay the course for their new god. Even if this is the wrong choice.

Furthermore, there isn't any evidence that sundering the world cause "destruction" of their world. But this like many other things needs to be cleared up by Hydaelyn and I think given the revelation of Shadowbringers and the implications of the WOL's history, we need to have a long over due chat with Hydaelyn.

[Veloran]

A world that eventually went to war with itself despite everything being so much better compared to what exists today.

Hydaelyn may have been the one to sunder the world, but she's just the embodiment of an ideal.

Which happened as a result of the world ending. Meanwhile mortal conflicts arise for way more petty reasons and often cause the "world's ending". It's outright stated that the conflict between the Anyder and Convocation was unprecedented among the Amaurotine, the same is far from true on the Source.

That's what we've been told about. We've been shown a glimpse of Amaurot but not the wider world. We don't know if the whole world is "perfect and peaceful" or if it's simply Amaurotine society that works that way.

Also there's nothing to say they had "more fulfilled" lives just because they lived longer. That's all relative anyway. And a whole life in a repressive conformist society might not be all that fulfilling to some people anyway.

I really hope we get to see the ancient world through another civilization's eyes at some point. Get to look at Amaurot through others' eyes. Cause the impression I got from it was that for all the security and wonder it had, it was repressive, particularly of the individual.

I'm sure the world wasn't completely perfect or anything, but so far as we know Amaurot never had any conflicts either within their society or without, and they're noted to be pretty hesitant to assert themselves over other civilizations. As far as conformism goes we really only see that they try to keep to a dress code in order not to engender various social issues. You might say this is repressive, but just compare it to other civilizations on the Source, it has nothing on the likes of Ishgard or Doma/Hingashi or Gridania or Ul'dah. The thing to note here is that the Amaurotine had freedom of thought and speech, and the ability to create whatever they wished and share it with the rest of their society - Again, it's not like there were zero issues here or that it was totally unrestricted freedom, but in a comparison Amaurot practically blows modern societies out of the water.

Furthermore, there isn't any evidence that sundering the world cause "destruction" of their world.

I'm not really sure how to conceive it any other way.

[LineageRazor]

Was the ancient world really so great that we need to reclaim it at the cost of the modern worlds, even gently?

Well, to be frank... maybe? At least, if Emet's rose-colored descriptions have actual truth to them.

The days before the Final Days really WERE a utopia, if Emet spoke true, and if they could be returned to gently, with the cooperation and support of all the worlds, it might, indeed, be worthwhile. Of course, that's a lot of big ifs - and if that kind of cooperation could be secured, we'd pretty much ALREADY be a utopia. It's the kind of mass altruism that lead three quarters of the Ancients to give up their lives to save the world in the first place.

It's really not hard to sympathize with the Ascians, even while condemning them for the horrible things they do. The fact that their world was lost really was a horrendous tragedy, and it's not surprising that they'd want to bring it back - especially since the world that exists now is basically an unending cycle of misery and death - even at the BEST of times, SOMEONE out there is dying in a gutter or something. Again, though, all this assumes that Emet's sunny view of the past really reflects the reality of the time. There's some evidence that the utopia wasn't quite as absolute as he recollects it - things like the systematic stifling of individualism, and the dismissive attitude toward the problems of other cities.

I'm not really sure how to conceive it any other way.

It's unclear that the Dissenters actually knew the world was going to be Sundered. They created Hydaelyn to counter Zodiark, but we don't know how much they knew about how Hydaelyn was going to go about it. For that matter, Hydaelyn herself may not have known what the outcome would be when she split Zodiark into fourteen - the fact that the world was split along with him could well have been an unknowable and unanticipated side effect.

At this point, we don't know how much of what happened was actually part of the Dissenters' plan.

-Aaron

[Alleo]

I don't really like the idea it was specifically a retaliation by the star in response to the Ancient's creation magicks.

First, because it was killing the star. So bad move on that one. Second, because all Ancients were inherently born with the capacity for creation magic, it was as natural as breathing to them and even newborns could do it. I can see creation magic causing it in some ways, but not that it was something inherently antithetical or unnatural to the star itself.

Maybe it will be a bit of both. Even if they are born with the capacity for creation magic (and that one short story with the grapes seems to hint that there are less powerful people living at the same time) does not mean that they cant throw nature out of balance. They probably used that magic for everything.

Its with us and technology. It can be used in a good way that wont harm nature much or it can be too much. And then if nature is hurt too much it will hit back. Not in a sentient kind of way of course but simply reacting naturally to something that happens. Which would also make sense on why the Ancient seemingly did not notice a problem until it was too late. If its something from out of space, they kinda should have noticed an impact and threat from the moment it landed. Of course it can still happen, but honestly I would also not see it out of the way that they were unknowingly the cause for their own downfall.

That's what we've been told about. We've been shown a glimpse of Amaurot but not the wider world. We don't know if the whole world is "perfect and peaceful" or if it's simply Amaurotine society that works that way.

Also there's nothing to say they had "more fulfilled" lives just because they lived longer. That's all relative anyway. And a whole life in a repressive conformist society might not be all that fulfilling to some people anyway.

And then there's the question of what "rewriting the laws of the star" did to it all and whether Emet's dreamed-of perfect world would even still exist if it remained unsundered.

We know at least from the short stories that all was not well there. The soul that latched onto phoenix would not exist that way if it had not suffered something horrible. Then we have the people that seemingly would have stayed while their homes would have been destroyed by the vulcano. Its only Azim that seemingly did not accept that. Also Azims job alone is showing that some kind of conflict or danger must have existed too otherwise they would not need to travel the world and punch stuff with their friends.

I also doubt that the survivors of a rejoining would ever truly be happy about what happened. And since they once had been mortals too who is to say that suddenly all would be without conflict. So I agree Emets perfect world would not exist anymore. You would need to temper all these individuals...

... and, of course, their solution to prevent the destruction of the world directly resulted in the destruction of their world, which is just icing on the tragedy cake. I really hope we haven't heard the end of all of this, 'cause Hydaelyn and/or Venat has a lot of explaining to do. Or apologizing, or both.

Who knows maybe they do know what happened and understand that the only way to save any kind of life was through splitting it up. Maybe they understood very well what the consequences would be and that they would take it because it would guarantee the survival of not only their race (which was only the few surviving Amaurotines anyway, the rest was new life that would have died through sacrifice) but the whole world? Primals should only be able to do what their summoners wants them to do. Hydealyn having the ability to seemingly split the world apart seems to be a strange one if it was not intended that way.

Honestly I wonder if we will find out that the world being sundered was the solution to it all and that it was the cost for people being able to live a life (and have free will). Heck even if Azim seemingly was not on their side at that time (which is only a glimpse of what happens) maybe they became a part of that after seeing that there was no punching solution.

[Erendis]

So, the fact that the world is broken up into several shards is a problem that I feel would be better remedied. I was wondering lore wise if there might be a solution where instead of a grand calamity, a more gentle siphon is in place. Something that transfers souls over to the source until there are none left, at which point the rest of the aether comes through to rejoin the shard.

I guess it would be somewhat frightening to people on the shard. One day no new children are born, but it seems like a less evil way to fix the world.

I'm trying to imagine this and a dying world comes to mind. Considering how fast a lot of plants, animals and of course insects die, world would become barren pretty quickly and people would die out from starvation as they ran out of food sources, perhaps even turning to cannibalism before the end. I'm not quite sure this horrible fate is better than the usual...

[Razard]

I don't think the followers of Venat were dismissive towards the Convocation, nor were they arrogant and unthinking. Its pretty clear that open debate and discussion were highly valued by Ancients of Amarout, yet Venat's followers confirm that the Convocation refuses to hear what they have to say about the summoning of Zodiark.

Which must have been a shock to the system for them. A civilisation that values debate being shut down by what can only be described as brainwashed ideologues.

As many have said, it couldn't have been all sunshine and rainbows. Elidibus himself implied in his final moments that, at an indeterminate time after becoming Zodiark, the Convocation where fighting and could not come to an agreement on what to do about "The fate of this star". And wouldn't have if he hadn't manifested himself to give them his "Reconcilliation". Heck in a recent short story it implied that most of the Convocation where so sick of Azem's antics that they couldn't have thrown him out fast enough. Going so far as to leave his seat empty and wouldn't have his own memory crystal if he wasn't good friends with Emet and Hythlodeus.

Who knows maybe they do know what happened and understand that the only way to save any kind of life was through splitting it up. Maybe they understood very well what the consequences would be and that they would take it because it would guarantee the survival of not only their race (which was only the few surviving Amaurotines anyway, the rest was new life that would have died through sacrifice) but the whole world? Primals should only be able to do what their summoners wants them to do. Hydealyn having the ability to seemingly split the world apart seems to be a strange one if it was not intended that way.

Makes me think about what Emet said about Zodiark being "The Will of this Star made manifest". One possibility is that they where literal in that assessment and bonded Zodiark to the planet somehow. So Venat and the dissenters thinking of of giving Hydelyn the Divide power must not have forseen that splitting Zodiark would split the planet too.

But this is all just speculation at this point.