6.0 Red Mage speculation

[Katie_Kitty]

Part of the problem I think is that the devs shackled themselves to a design that doesn't have much room for sword skills. For weaponskills on the GCD you'd need to make them either proc Dualcast (which makes no sense concept-wise in the current design), generate mana (which makes no sense concept-wise in the current design), or deal really high damage to offset the loss of mana generation per GCD (which would be broken and probably still be a DPS loss).

oGCDs have a little more leeway, though that isn't saying much. You'd need abilities that interact with procs, or deal higher damage than the current oGCDs. The former could make sword use contribute to mana generation without breaking the hard rules the devs created for RDM sword skills (i.e, they are either regular weaponskills that hit like a soft breeze, or enchanted weaponskills that deal actual damage). One suggestion I've been thinking about is an oGCD sword skill (requires melee range because I'm a melee proponent) that consumes Verfire/Verstone Ready and generates the proc's respective mana (+9 Black Mana for consuming Verfire Ready, +9 White Mana for consuming Verstone Ready, +9 B/W Mana if you have both effects active) on a 15-20s cooldown. I also still think Engagement's damage needs to be buffed and separated from Displacement's cooldown.

To answer your question regarding Fleche and Contre, they're likely there because actual sword skills (that require swinging a sword) couldn't be in the skill list due to the job being put in the ranged caster DPS category when it was introduced. My own hypothesis is that it's also a callback to an MMD animation of a spell fencer fighting a monster (because the swords she conjured in the video were very similar to the swords we see in Fleche and Contre's animations). I thought it looked ridiculous, but some people liked it.

I've actually been advocating for a continuation-type skill that you can use during your melee combo. I like the idea of having a button similar to GNB's continuation that does two things:

1) It performs a powerful oGCD melee attack in-between melee steps

2) It channels the b/w mana gauge spent on enchanted melee combo steps into a secondary job gauge which is used to perform a powerful finisher melee attack at the end.

For example

Melee 1 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Melee 1 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Melee 3 (b/w gauge goes down) + Continuation (2nd gauge goes up) > Verflare/holy + Melee finisher + double-weaved oGCD > Scorch + 2 double-weaved oGCDs

Maybe the melee finisher could be a DoT. Or, alternatively, instead of a melee finisher the new 2nd job gauge could produce a major damage buff for the next few spells. That might be neat.

[ZaqueXIII]

I think when speculating about red mage you need to look at the job as it is currently and the areas it is lacking in compared to other jobs, but, also see what is demanded in the end and where it has plenty.

One change I would like to see is a small MP refund for using our enchanted sword moves. Sword moves exist almost exclusively inside the burst combo so having them give us a small benefit(I wouldn't honestly refund more than 500 mp per move) would help RDM. On the OGCD front, I think as it is red mage has so much that it doesn't necessarily need more. If a continuation like addition to the sword combo would make it so the RDM is wasting fleches and contre-sixtes and their other OGCD skills over a fight which seems like a waste. Also, I've only got controller room for like 3 more buffs or OGCD's before red mage hits bloat and more GCDS is basically out of the picture

As for the AOE combo, Its really close to good but still feels lacking, AOE is only used in dungeons and other content and our DPS output there is fine, however, I would like to see perhaps a secondary sword AOE move with moulinet that maybe consumes 30 gauge but has a combo potency making it worth it so it would translate from 7 moulinets into 3 combined sword(6 actions) AOE's max. Also perhaps some kind of proc that would result in the AOE magic combo generating more black or white MP. Because in terms of getting to 100/100 currently, It takes around 14 dual casts or roughly 28 GCDS from 0/0 which is a little over a minute, I believe, of saving resources to feel a big pay off, whereas many other jobs hit their AOE stride every 30 seconds and don't have to save near as much.

Also, I might be alone in this but jobs with more than one job gauge or a useless job gauge are smelly. I think the Black/White mana gauge Does enough for us and don't want unnecessary clutter on my screen or dictating my play. there is alot of depth with the current gauge too allowing for a variety of openers and optimization.

[Jonnycbad]

As far as AoE combo goes, I would like to see something like BLU's Surpanakha added to Enchanted Moulinet.

Trait- "Enhanced Spellblade"

Enchanted Moulinet
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 200 to all enemies in a cone before you.
Additional Effect: Grants "Ensorcellment", increasing potency of next Weapon Skill by 30.
Can be stacked up to 3 times.
Duration 15s.

Then we get a verfinisher called Ardor that requires and then consumes 3 stacks of Ensorcellement while refunding us back 7 black&white mana like Scorch does. Like Verflare/Verholy, Ardor would replace Impact on the hotbar when you have 3 stacks.

Ardor
Deals unaspected damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 550 for the first enemy, and 25% less for all remaining enemies.
Consumes 3 stacks of Ensorcellment.
Additional Effect: Increases both Black Mana and White Mana by 7

This basically gives us an aoe "combo" that culminates into an AoE finisher spell. Ardor was a spell exclusive to Red Battlemage class in FF12:TZA, so I think it fits.

[Duelle]

1) It performs a powerful oGCD melee attack in-between melee steps

2) It channels the b/w mana gauge spent on enchanted melee combo steps into a secondary job gauge which is used to perform a powerful finisher melee attack at the end.

Late reply, but better later than never... >.>;

The problem I have with this is that you're cramming more things to the melee combo. What I'd aim for is adding more sword use during the build phase, because adding more to the spender phase screws RDM over even more in situations where targets died before you do the whole combo, the boss becomes untargetable and/or phase transitions. Also, the enchanted combo's GCD is too short to reliably allow weaving stuff between the weaponskills, giving RDM an issue similar to what MCH currently has where latency plays a huge role.

- I'd love if Engagement became the default melee 200 potency finisher and Displacement had both its damage and target requirement components removed, thus becoming purely a movement based skill, to be used on demand at the end of the melee combo or if you'd actually had to leap some other time. It always feels a bit weird to tie in utility (movement) abilities with dps components.

This is something I've always felt was off about the job, so I agree that Engagement should be separated from Displacement and have its potency increased so that it can join Fleche and Contre as buttons you push between GCDs.

As for Displacement, there's two ways to go about it. One would be to remove the damage component. The other would be to give RDM enough oGCDs to make use of Displacement a DPS loss, relegating it to being something you only use when you absolutely need to open distance. The former is much easier to implement than the latter.

- I wish the potency of the non-enchanted melee combo was raised, but not to the point of being the same of the jolt>etc rotation... Reason is, there would be a few opportunities to use that on trash targets that would die too fast for you to complete cast spells... It wouldn't really affect the main rotation at all, but offer an option in such cases. E.G. Heaven on High runs where things die way too fast, I feel kinda useless as a RDM.

The main issue here is that, as I've mentioned before, the devs have shackled RDM to the mana bars and Dualcast. In order for non-enchanted weaponskills to be worthwhile they have to interact with at least one of those elements (either generate mana that offsets not casting Jolt+Verspell or making the next spell instant) or make up what what RDM is missing out on by not interacting with either. On top of that, you're dealing with the hard-coded rules on weaponskills where if you're above a certain amount of B/W mana, the weaponskill instantly consumes said mana. It's a very rigid system in that regard.

the flip-side to this is Engagement just being an oGCD melee skill for the sake of having one.

Considering how underrepresented the sword is in the bulk of RDM gameplay, having melee skills (even if oGCDs) that don't involve the mana bars isn't a bad thing. Yeah, it's an extra button to push, but it's a fair tradeoff, IMO.

having Displacement send you to the position of your last Corps-a-Corps

I'd like an example for this because I can't visualize it.

offloading their damage onto Corps-a-Corps and giving it charges

This puts a bit too much power on Corps, which I'm not comfortable with. Not to mention you're still encouraging squandering mobility tools between GCDs (though to be fair, gap closers aren't as big a deal as gap openers most of the time).

[Archwizard]

Considering how underrepresented the sword is in the bulk of RDM gameplay, having melee skills (even if oGCDs) that don't involve the mana bars isn't a bad thing.

I don't know how many ways to tell you that the "representation" you keep bringing up is a misguided push to rework us into a core melee job with some ranged spells. Which very few people want.

As RDM stands, if you want more melee skills, we need more Mana generation first. Otherwise Engagement is just gonna be something we may as well macro into our melee combo, or split an extra 50 potency among the E. Melee skills.

I'd like an example for this because I can't visualize it.

We already have Ley Lines and Between the Lines on a similar principle to what I mean. Hell, even DRG's Jump, just as a single action.

Whenever you use Corps-a-Corps, your starting position is recorded and you get a buff remembering it for 15-20 sec (possibly with a visual like a sigil on the floor or a shadow clone left behind, whathaveyou).
If you use Displacement during this window, instead of jumping 15y straight backwards, you instead jump to the exact spot you used Corps-a-Corps from. No more flipping out of the arena; if you used it in a safe spot or hold Displacement until your original spot is safe, you will be.
And of course you can still use Displacement as a backstep if you need it for that boost.

This puts a bit too much power on Corps, which I'm not comfortable with.

... What? What are you even talking about. We use Corps and the -ment abilities together already!

Corps is 140 potency to a single target every 40 sec. This would increase it to 340 (or accounting for the CD difference, around 370) potency every 40 sec. -- all of which is damage we already inflict now, just split over two oGCDs.
For comparison, Fleche is 440 potency on a single target every 25 sec, Contre Sixte is 400 per target every 35 sec, so it would still be the weakest oGCD we have. The only part of it with impact on our output would be the second charge.

Literally, what does it matter?

Not to mention you're still encouraging squandering mobility tools between GCDs (though to be fair, gap closers aren't as big a deal as gap openers most of the time).

So what you're saying is, no worse than what we have now, even if little better? No different than most of the vaunted melee jobs you wish RDM was part of...?

But if you prefer: The devs could easily write it so it's only "Enchanted" when you get 80/80 Mana to boost it by the extra 200 potency, so that its use as a gap-closer leading into your combo fundamentally doesn't change. You just have an extra charge to give it a grace period between uses and use it as a gap-closer when needed.

[Duelle]

I don't know how many ways to tell you that the "representation" you keep bringing up is a misguided push to rework us into a core melee job with some ranged spells. Which very few people want.

By representation I mean the core of the job is still spamming spells. When I start seeing more sword use beyond the melee combo, I can re-evaluate how one stands compared to the other.

Also, while my issues with the job's design are no secret to anyone here, I'm not talking about a redesign.

As RDM stands, if you want more melee skills, we need more Mana generation first.

If you increase mana generation, you're part of the way to making the spender phase superfluous because the current design and pace of mana generation tries to pass off enchanted sword swings as a big deal. If the goal is to keep the current design, I'd prefer to leave that part of the job alone and instead favor melee oGCDs that are not dependent on the mana bars.

Otherwise Engagement is just gonna be something we may as well macro into our melee combo, or split an extra 50 potency among the E. Melee skills.

You could do what I do, which is stand in melee range and just use it on cooldown. I won't deny that splitting Engagement from Displacement would be a boon to me, as I wouldn't miss out on a gap opener when needed just because I like to stand in the front lines.

Whenever you use Corps-a-Corps, your starting position is recorded and you get a buff remembering it for 15-20 sec (possibly with a visual like a sigil on the floor or a shadow clone left behind, whathaveyou).
If you use Displacement during this window, instead of jumping 15y straight backwards, you instead jump to the exact spot you used Corps-a-Corps from. No more flipping out of the arena; if you used it in a safe spot or hold Displacement until your original spot is safe, you will be.

Okay, I understand that now. Getting rid of the meme of accidentally jumping off boss platforms would be an improvement, and it deals with an apparent flaw in Displacement (I'd still say needlessly having to jump around is stupid, but that's neither here nor there). I guess you could make Engagament its own ability (buff the damage or give it another effect) since at that point there'd be no reason for it to share a cooldown with anything.

Corps is 140 potency to a single target every 40 sec. This would increase it to 340 (or accounting for the CD difference, around 370) potency every 40 sec. -- all of which is damage we already inflict now, just split over two oGCDs.
...
Literally, what does it matter?

300+ potency on a gap closer leaves a bad taste in my mouth, even if it'd a DPS gain (assuming you make Corps 2 charges). It just makes the "that's a bit much for the utility it offers" alarms ring in my head.

So what you're saying is, no worse than what we have now, even if little better? No different than most of the vaunted melee jobs you wish RDM was part of...?

Corps and Displacement being oGCD fillers doesn't make them a good thing per se (for context, I had a problem with stuns and silences dealing damage during ARR and Heavensward because people were using those on cooldown instead of properly learning to stun and silence mobs, which is still biting us in the ass). Taking this back to an earlier point, assuming you add one or two oGCDs that involve sword use as better alternatives to Corps/Displacement, you basically push them out of the rotation outside of situations when everything is on cooldown (which, based on my own experiences, is not often) or when you actually need to open/close a gap. At that point you're playing into the priority system currently in place.

We already have one possible candidate in Engagement (assuming all you do is split its cooldown from Displacement and buff its damage). We'd just need another one, be it just plain damage, something that interacts with spells in some way, or something that interacts with procs (consuming Verfire/Verstone Ready to generate mana or upgrading the procs to more powerful spells that generate more mana or mana of both types). That said, two skills would be nice, but just one would make a notable difference.

[Archwizard]

If you increase mana generation, you're part of the way to making the spender phase superfluous

I fail to see how it would do that, in part because our Mana generation has already increased this last expansion thanks to Scorch and Enhanced Manafication, and based on the rest of our leveling experience, I expect that will continue to be the general upward trend for us in the future.

If the spender phase maintains its position as the capstone of our damage, then increased Mana generation doesn't necessarily diminish the phase itself, just makes it more frequent. Like if BLM somehow got a way to speed up Polyglot charges, for instance... or like any melee job's resource gauges.
All this depending on how they choose to go about increasing Mana generation of course (new spells that give above-average amounts of one type of Mana or some of each type, increasing Ver-proc rates, adding a small amount of Mana to each of our oGCDs, an Anatman-style skill or adding a small amount of Mana to Cure in-combat for downtime, etc), but if anything it would just reduce our necessary time spent slinging ranged attacks.

Your critique comes off as doomsaying more than logical concern.

You could do what I do, which is stand in melee range and just use it on cooldown.

Like I was saying, all you're essentially doing is mashing another free swing into the combo we already have (since its timer roughly lines up with it anyway and it's affected by Manafication). I'm not sure that tangibly makes a positive difference in terms of our gameplay, at least no more than tacking another capstone onto the end of our combo.
I'll grant you could say the same thing about any of our other oGCDs, but you don't need to be in the melee to use them on cooldown, they're not synchronized with our melee phase, and their actual role is to help fill the frequent gaps between our interchangeable dualcasts so we don't feel severe downtime; their asynchronous nature also gives them plenty of room for expansion, like shrinking their CDs without worrying about how they line up. By contrast, our melee phase hardly has any downtime to shrink.

Right now, Engagement exists not because the devs felt we needed another melee skill, but because they wanted to give us a consolation for occasionally being unable to Displacement. Without that competitive aspect, the only justification for Engagement in its current form to continue to take hotbar space is for a sliver of raw potency (Physical damage at that), which wouldn't be strong enough for another job to consider worth keeping. It's exactly the kind of "superfluous" melee skill you were just warning against.
Without some other utilitarian element, once we get to the point the devs need to start trading out skills for us, it's at the top of the list of skills to chop, not build off.