I feel like I'm missing something huge, at the start of Shadowbringers

[dragonseth07]

It's more order vs chaos than good vs evil. Too much light is just as bad as too much dark. There needs to be a balance or everything collapses (as seen on the First and the Thirteenth.)

I get that it's trying to come across that way, but it just doesn't, to me.

It's like the game is saying "Darkness isn't evil. It's just a massive coincidence that the servants of Darkness keep doing evil things."

[Brightamethyst]

It's like the game is saying "Darkness isn't evil. It's just a massive coincidence that the servants of Darkness keep doing evil things."

That's part of what ShB is trying to explain. That the Ascians (the unsundered at least) more chaotic good than pure evil. They honestly feel that their plan is correct, and if they have to be the villains in order to make it happen, so be it.

[dragonseth07]

That's part of what ShB is trying to explain. That the Ascians (the unsundered at least) more chaotic good than pure evil. They honestly feel that their plan is correct, and if they have to be the villains in order to make it happen, so be it.

But, it also undermines it at every turn. Everywhere I look, the game is trying to reinforce the idea that Light is Good, from ARR all the way up to Shadowbringers.

Even when the Light is made out to be literally monstrous, we get enemy names like "Forgiven Cowardice", with the citizens of the world calling themselves Sinners.

It's not even subtle about it. It makes the break away from that comparison feel forced.

Edit: It also puts us in a very unsatisfying position, thinking about the future, because again, all we've been shown to this point were Ascian methods. Like I have to say, "Sorry, I have to let Ultima go off and kill all these people, or the world will die because I'm too good at being heroic."

[Brightamethyst]

It also puts us in a very unsatisfying position, thinking about the future, because again, all we've been shown to this point were Ascian methods. Like I have to say, "Sorry, I have to let Ultima go off and kill all these people, or the world will die because I'm too good at being heroic."

The Ascians have been trying to explain it to us for years but we just scoffed and called them crazy until we saw it for ourselves. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2.0 Lahabrea straight up told us a lot of these things during his monologue in the Praetorium. We just didn't believe him or understand the implications until years later.

[dragonseth07]

The Ascians have been trying to explain it to us for years but we just scoffed and called them crazy until we saw it for ourselves. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2.0 Lahabrea straight up told us a lot of these things during his monologue in the Praetorium. We just didn't believe him or understand the implications until years later.

I remember the monologue, and I remember thinking that his portrayal sounds like a terrible way to go about the whole light-dark balance angle, because it made the dichotomy sound too close to good and evil in that moment. It comes off like you need to burn down an orphanage every time you save a group of peasants, and that impression is only reinforced by later content. I know that Light and Dark aren't Good and Evil, but I swear to God that SE doesn't seem to know that.

They keep trying to drive home the balance angle, which I appreciate the potential for, but they also just keep portraying Darkness as cartoonishly evil the whole time, which makes the whole thing seem nonsensical. As if I need to stop doing side-quests, lest I make one too many people happy and cause the End of Days.

[Iscah]

Edit: It also puts us in a very unsatisfying position, thinking about the future, because again, all we've been shown to this point were Ascian methods. Like I have to say, "Sorry, I have to let Ultima go off and kill all these people, or the world will die because I'm too good at being heroic."

This was a running concern we (or at least I) had in the lead-up to Shadowbringers given the history of what "bringing darkness" meant in the hands of the Ascians.

You said you're only at the start of the game, so you probably haven't reached the point of actually starting to diminish the Light yet. Rest assured that you will not be embracing the powers of darkness or committing acts of cruelty to do so.

Honestly it's prettymuch false advertising that makes you expect something much edgier than what you get. To my relief, personally, but it's still at odds with what actually happens.

[LineageRazor]

Even when the Light is made out to be literally monstrous, we get enemy names like "Forgiven Cowardice", with the citizens of the world calling themselves Sinners.

It's explained during the Main Scenario that self-referring as "Sinners" was due to a misunderstanding at the start of the Flood of Light. A not-insignificant number of people believed that the Lightwardens and the Sin Eaters were holy hosts from the heavens called down to punish the wicked. When it became clear that they were here to punish EVERYONE, the name still stuck, but with an ironic twist to it: the people now used the name as a badge of resistance. They would RESIST Heaven's judgement, and fight against the holy hosts (if holy hosts they even were). They continued to refer to the creatures by the names they'd already given them, and why not? Everyone by that point knew what a "Forgiven Cowardice" was, so there was little point in confusing the issue by naming it something else.

As for the light vs darkness angle, here's a VERY spoilery explanation that basically gives away the whole plot of Shadowbringers. Read at your own risk!

As others in the thread have mentioned, "Light vs Dark" is really "Order vs Chaos" rather than "Good vs Evil". Light represents stability (as a positive spin) and stagnancy (for negative). Darkness represents change (positive) and destruction (negative). Zodiark, the god of the Ascians, is actually an enormously powerful Primal that they summoned out of desperation when their world was literally ending. Enormous change was needed to bring things under control, and so Zodiark is pretty much the epitome of Darkness.

It worked, but was a problematic solution because Zodiark needed a tremendous amount of energy, but for the initial summoning and also to provide him the power he needed to get the job done. Three quarters of the world's population were sacrificed (voluntarily - it was such a utopian society that folks en masse were willing to give up their lives for the sakes of those who would carry on after), and the world was healed and began to flourish with new life. The folks that had summoned Zodiark, though, were not satisfied, and decided to sacrifice this new life to Zodiark in order to resurrect the sacrificed people.

Not everyone agreed with this plan. There were a signficiant number of dissenting individuals who believed that enough blood had been shed, that the world now belonged to the new life. Further, they believed that bringing back the sacrificed would set the stage for the disaster that Zodiark had prevented to resurface again. For the first time in living memory for the members of that utopian society, no amount of debate was enough to reach an agreement, and the dissenters eventually summoned their OWN primal, one much weaker than Zodiark but with a particular power capable of overcoming him: Hydaelyn, who had the power to divide. She divided Zodiark (and the entire world, and all but three of the Ascians) into fourteen pieces, rendering him weak enough to seal away.

Hydaelyn's goal now is to preserve order and stability on the divided world, and to prevent Zodiark from resurfacing. She hasn't been doing the best job - the Ascians decided that the best course of action was to put the world back together again, and they've succeeded seven times so far. Each Calamity merges one of the sundered worlds (the Shards) back into the original world (the Source, where we live), at the cost of extinguishing every life on that planet. The Ascians see this as a mercy - mortals live pitiful, short lives, and are weak in magic, mind, and body. Compared to the Ancients, they barely even qualify as ALIVE. Obviously, as members of this weak, pitful collection of mortals, we disagree, and see the wanton slaughter as monstrous.

So we, representatives of Light, order, and stability, are in conflict with the Ascians, representatives of Darkness, change, and destruction. The Ascians are doing what they see as best for the world, for their lost people, and for quality of life in general. We are doing what we see as best for all the worlds and the people living on them now.

The Ascians DO seem as though they enjoy their role a bit too much, it's true - but there are bits and pieces here and there that hint that they've come a bit unhinged over the millenia, frustrated with the slow progress, the resistance they face, and above all the general AWFULNESS of the mortal beings that now consider themselves to be rulers of the world the Ascians' people once claimed.

[thegreatonemal]

That's part of what ShB is trying to explain. That the Ascians (the unsundered at least) more chaotic good than pure evil. They honestly feel that their plan is correct, and if they have to be the villains in order to make it happen, so be it.

That's not what ShB was trying to say given the nature of what it is the Ascians serve. They are pure evil who think they are good. ShB shows us why they came to feel that way.

[Brightamethyst]

They are pure evil who think they are good.

The Asicnas aren't deluded. It's all a matter of perspective.

We see them as evil because modern human morality says genocide = bad. The Ascians see themselves as right because from their perspective none of this is real. Killing people means nothing because the world isn't really real and reviving Zodiark will put everything back to the way it should be. We of course don't want the world to end and millions of people to die, but that doesn't make the Ascian's viewpoint inherently wrong.

Did you ever play FFTA? Same thing. Marche just wants to end the dream and get home, but to the people of Ivalice he looked like a supervillain trying to unmake the universe. It's all perspective.

[YianKutku]

The Asicnas aren't deluded. It's all a matter of perspective.

We see them as evil because modern human morality says genocide = bad. The Ascians see themselves as right because from their perspective none of this is real. Killing people means nothing because the world isn't really real and reviving Zodiark will put everything back to the way it should be. We of course don't want the world to end and millions of people to die, but that doesn't make the Ascian's viewpoint inherently wrong.

Did you ever play FFTA? Same thing. Marche just wants to end the dream and get home, but to the people of Ivalice he looked like a supervillain trying to unmake the universe. It's all perspective.

The problem with the Ascians is that whether or not they believe they have the right to genocide the people they don't think are "real", they still don't have to be such massive jerks about it.

Their methods maximize suffering for no apparent reason, other than their own personal amusement. They're even jerks to their fellow Ascians.