I feel like I'm missing something huge, at the start of Shadowbringers

[dragonseth07]

Hi. I've recently began playing through Shadowbringers after being gone from the game for 1.5 years or so, and I'm finding myself increasingly frustrated by the lore so far. I'm hoping y'all can help me resolve what I see as issues, because I have to think that I'm off-base with my perceptions, I'm just unsure exactly how.

The idea of Light and Dark being opposing forces that need balance is great. I liked the WoD storyline back in Heavensward, and I was ready to see some more explanation about what Light and Dark actually are, but it didn't come, and it left a lot of concerning holes by the time of ShB starting. The problem is that those holes aren't patched yet by the time of me already committing to bring balance to the First by fighting back the Light. I'm committing to a conflict that, as of yet in the story, still doesn't make any sense.

The holes I'm talking about boil down to this: The conflict between Light and Dark on the Source prior to ShB hasn't felt cosmic or abstract at all, it has just felt like heroes vs villains, over and over. Us tipping the balance towards Light involved putting down Primals, and just going around doing generic hero things repeatedly. The big conflict capstone in ARR was us stopping the Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea from causing mass death and destruction. That set the tone completely for what Light vs Dark means. After that, us tipping the balance continued in a similar direction. Over and over.

This doesn't mean that Light is Good and Darkness is Evil. Far from it. But, it means that, generally, actions that can be perceived as good or heroic are those that push the balance towards Light. And the opposite: the Ascians repeatedly try to push towards Darkness by causing disasters, death, and destruction. So, the methods open to either side for pushing the balance have been implied to be limited to this, thus far.

It feels like the writing up to ShB doesn't support the main conflict we just jumped into, for this reason. We want to fight back against the Light. But, the only method we have been shown to do that is by nuking the world or forcing Primals to show up and start causing problems.

And I'm okay with that? There hasn't been a good explanation of why Light and Dark work the way they do yet, or alternative methods of tipping the balance. So, at this point in the story, I'm signing up to replicate Ascian methods of mustache-twirling villainy, based only on what I know up to this point.

I get that the Light vs Dark conflict is supposed to be more abstract, and that it's not as simple as Good vs Evil. But, I don't feel like that has been reinforced well up until this point, so it feels contradictory to the events of the previous expansions.

Edit: I summarized it below well, I think: It's like the game is saying "Darkness isn't evil. It's just a massive coincidence that the servants of Darkness keep doing evil things."

[Mhaeric]

Everything until now, particularly in the 2.0 story is very much just told from our point of view where the information we have is very black and white. We are followers of Hydalen who is light and good and we're fighting the ascians who are followers of Zodiark who is dark and evil. It's not until Shadowbringers that we learn of the nuances behind that one-sided view although there's hints of it before then.

I.e. it's not completely new info that is contradictory, it's information we didn't know about that expands our worldview.

[Brightamethyst]

It's more order vs chaos than good vs evil. Too much light is just as bad as too much dark. There needs to be a balance or everything collapses (as seen on the First and the Thirteenth.)

[Geriel]

From the way I understand it, it is a fight between Order (Light) and Chaos (Dark). Usually, we are seen to represent Order. This time, the Lightwardens et al. represent Order. We are chaos.

I don't know if that answers your question at all, but I hope it helps.

[dragonseth07]

It's more order vs chaos than good vs evil. Too much light is just as bad as too much dark. There needs to be a balance or everything collapses (as seen on the First and the Thirteenth.)

I get that it's trying to come across that way, but it just doesn't, to me.

It's like the game is saying "Darkness isn't evil. It's just a massive coincidence that the servants of Darkness keep doing evil things."

[Brightamethyst]

It's like the game is saying "Darkness isn't evil. It's just a massive coincidence that the servants of Darkness keep doing evil things."

That's part of what ShB is trying to explain. That the Ascians (the unsundered at least) more chaotic good than pure evil. They honestly feel that their plan is correct, and if they have to be the villains in order to make it happen, so be it.

[dragonseth07]

That's part of what ShB is trying to explain. That the Ascians (the unsundered at least) more chaotic good than pure evil. They honestly feel that their plan is correct, and if they have to be the villains in order to make it happen, so be it.

But, it also undermines it at every turn. Everywhere I look, the game is trying to reinforce the idea that Light is Good, from ARR all the way up to Shadowbringers.

Even when the Light is made out to be literally monstrous, we get enemy names like "Forgiven Cowardice", with the citizens of the world calling themselves Sinners.

It's not even subtle about it. It makes the break away from that comparison feel forced.

Edit: It also puts us in a very unsatisfying position, thinking about the future, because again, all we've been shown to this point were Ascian methods. Like I have to say, "Sorry, I have to let Ultima go off and kill all these people, or the world will die because I'm too good at being heroic."

[Brightamethyst]

It also puts us in a very unsatisfying position, thinking about the future, because again, all we've been shown to this point were Ascian methods. Like I have to say, "Sorry, I have to let Ultima go off and kill all these people, or the world will die because I'm too good at being heroic."

The Ascians have been trying to explain it to us for years but we just scoffed and called them crazy until we saw it for ourselves. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2.0 Lahabrea straight up told us a lot of these things during his monologue in the Praetorium. We just didn't believe him or understand the implications until years later.

[dragonseth07]

The Ascians have been trying to explain it to us for years but we just scoffed and called them crazy until we saw it for ourselves. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2.0 Lahabrea straight up told us a lot of these things during his monologue in the Praetorium. We just didn't believe him or understand the implications until years later.

I remember the monologue, and I remember thinking that his portrayal sounds like a terrible way to go about the whole light-dark balance angle, because it made the dichotomy sound too close to good and evil in that moment. It comes off like you need to burn down an orphanage every time you save a group of peasants, and that impression is only reinforced by later content. I know that Light and Dark aren't Good and Evil, but I swear to God that SE doesn't seem to know that.

They keep trying to drive home the balance angle, which I appreciate the potential for, but they also just keep portraying Darkness as cartoonishly evil the whole time, which makes the whole thing seem nonsensical. As if I need to stop doing side-quests, lest I make one too many people happy and cause the End of Days.

[Cilia]

Shadowbringers does reframe the conflict to a degree, from "good / evil" to "chaos / order." This is made explicit through a cutscene about a third of the way through the MSQ, where Urianger explains what Light and Dark actually are beyond vague terms. This is hinted at more than a little bit early on (without spoiling too much), as Eulmore has a twisted sort of order under Vauthry's rule (and Eulmore remains an antagonistic faction until the twilight of 5.0's MSQ).

That said even this framing comes across as odd to me, given Stormblood similarly had us acting as agents of chaos and change in the cruel and brutal order Garlemald was enforcing on Doma and Ala Mhigo. Hell, we've been agents of positive change damn near everywhere we go... but I digress.