Does Square intend to address Market botting?

[Jojoya]

Because its impossible to sell anything, how can you compete with a botter?

You don't compete against them on what they're selling. You sell what they aren't selling. There are thousands of items to craft and sell.

Pay attention to what's happening on the marketboard. There aren't so many bots on every world that they've covered every possible corner of the market to the point that no real players have a chance to sell anything at all. If you look, you will find opportunities to sell and profit.

[Auriya]

You don't compete against them on what they're selling. You sell what they aren't selling. There are thousands of items to craft and sell.

Pay attention to what's happening on the marketboard. There aren't so many bots on every world that they've covered every possible corner of the market to the point that no real players have a chance to sell anything at all. If you look, you will find opportunities to sell and profit.

I have followed this thread and other threads about botting for a long time almost from the beginning and I tried myself to fight the marketboard botters ingame as well AND it's just plain infuriating to see your responses about the problem and miscrediting players for delivering their experiences about marketboard botting. I don't know what your agenda is whether it comes from plain ignorance, or it's from protecting yourself, protecting friends or something else. But stop spreading FALSE information about that their isn't a marketboard botting problem cause it's there right in front of you. It's so massive that you can't even miss it!! And if your server is so blissfully unaffected then just plain acknowledge that other servers have a huge problem.

[TheLoveJenovan]

I have followed this thread and other threads about botting for a long time almost from the beginning and I tried myself to fight the marketboard botters ingame as well AND it's just plain infuriating to see your responses about the problem and miscrediting players for delivering their experiences about marketboard botting. I don't know what your agenda is whether it comes from plain ignorance, or it's from protecting yourself, protecting friends or something else. But stop spreading FALSE information about that their isn't a marketboard botting problem cause it's there right in front of you. It's so massive that you can't even miss it!! And if your server is so blissfully unaffected then just plain acknowledge that other servers have a huge problem.

I agree, the motivation for these posts is dubious. Thanks for saying something.

I've been compiling a list of bot rings on NA/Europe datacenters, and I have 23 so far covering 127 accounts. I plan to send this to the STF team every Thursday, after we get the bot reports, to help them in their job, since they're a team of only 4 people.

If you'd like to share the bots you've found to add to the list, feel free to post them on our discord (https://discord.gg/XVCakA).

For example, the Odin FC MoonLight (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...0711086352600/) is currently ranked 4th on your server and looks suspiciously like a FC bot ring.

[Jojoya]

I have followed this thread and other threads about botting for a long time almost from the beginning and I tried myself to fight the marketboard botters ingame as well AND it's just plain infuriating to see your responses about the problem and miscrediting players for delivering their experiences about marketboard botting. I don't know what your agenda is whether it comes from plain ignorance, or it's from protecting yourself, protecting friends or something else. But stop spreading FALSE information about that their isn't a marketboard botting problem cause it's there right in front of you. It's so massive that you can't even miss it!! And if your server is so blissfully unaffected then just plain acknowledge that other servers have a huge problem.

Where did I say there's not a market bot problem?

Not once have I said there is no market bot problem.

Instead of accusing me of misrepresenting things or spreading false information, you need to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying.

What I have said is that despite the existence of the market bots, it is still possible for crafters to profit by selling items on the MB. That's 100% true. I do it daily. I do it with the items the bots are mainly ignoring. If the bots start selling what I'm selling, I go find something else.

I have said there are other factors depressing the market in addition to the bots. That is also 100% true. If you're going to be good at the marketboard game, you've got to know what's driving all of your competition and not just one part of it.

You can decide to play the victim and loudly proclaim how bots have ruined your game life, or you can take back control of your game life and enjoy it despite the bots.

I chose to do the latter. I'm not letting things outside of my control ruin the game for me. It might take a bit more effort but I'm still making gil on the MB. I'm still having fun.

Are you doing what you can to make sure you still have fun and enjoy the game? It's in your hands.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Where did I say there's not a market bot problem?

Not once have I said there is no market bot problem.

Instead of accusing me of misrepresenting things or spreading false information, you need to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying.

What I have said is that despite the existence of the market bots, it is still possible for crafters to profit by selling items on the MB. That's 100% true. I do it daily. I do it with the items the bots are mainly ignoring. If the bots start selling what I'm selling, I go find something else.

I have said there are other factors depressing the market in addition to the bots. That is also 100% true. If you're going to be good at the marketboard game, you've got to know what's driving all of your competition and not just one part of it.

You can decide to play the victim and loudly proclaim how bots have ruined your game life, or you can take back control of your game life and enjoy it despite the bots.

I chose to do the latter. I'm not letting things outside of my control ruin the game for me. It might take a bit more effort but I'm still making gil on the MB. I'm still having fun.

Are you doing what you can to make sure you still have fun and enjoy the game? It's in your hands.

Thanks Jojoya. I'm replying to your post even though I said that I wouldn't.

I think some people interpret your posts as having a defeatist attitude, and they're hoping to find a solution to the problem with this thread. You're right that some markets aren't tapped by bots, but these can be seized by bots pretty quickly. In my experience on Jenova and Zalera, bots will move into the markets of 60-80 or more items if their revenue streams aren't generating the gil they need. For me, this meant that I was making 1-3M gil a day to about 50-100k gil a day. I suppose we can be happy to be making that much, but if we're trying to save money for an FC large plot (40-45M), it'll take a long time--as a result of a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

I think we can all agree that the game would be better with more players and fewer bots. I'm not speaking for everyone, but I think many of us are just seeking solutions rather than obstacles in a thread like this. I also don't think it's pointless to discuss these solutions. If protests can overturn corrupt governments, surely a user base can effect change in a company that has been complacent to this point.

[tierney12]

On Louisoix, the case has been such now for weeks that a bot network literally sells every gear piece available to buy. Neo-ishgardian, Aesthete, and every single piece of crafted gear for levelling or glam. I am not exaggerating. There is no market to corner and make your own on my server.

[Auriya]

Jojoya
It's like a record sounding the same over and over.....by saying that the market is still out there and there are other things to sell ( Quote:” I switch to the items they aren't focused on. I still make gil crafting and selling on the MB.”) you imply that the bot issue is not so bad cause players can still sell their items – so yes it is a statement that the marketboard bot situation is not so bad!

Again: You seemingly (?) are on a server that doesn't have a severe marketboard bot issue. Can you just please now acknowledge and respect that it isn't reality for so many other players? It DOES NOT apply to many other servers or even datacenters???

Good that you are obviosuly having fun but fun has been ruined for so many other players because they take or took a special interest in trading or the crafting market.
Maybe you're satiesfied with earning next to nothing and maybe it's ok for you to search for hours every day to find a tiny nieche where you can craft a few items and sell but I know many crafters who said they will not put up the effort anymore for measley 10-20k profit - myself included - IF I even can sell. ANY time I find a nieche it's taken over by bots before it even get started. You think other crafters have different experiences?! Maybe they are just not loud about it but I can assure you it involves a lot of players - not just on my server but on most of the datacenter.
Fyi I can tell you that it's not just the mid market 50-80 in battle/crafting/gathering gear, tools, weapons, it's the whole crafting/gathering market and housing items, glamor (any lvl) that are covered by bots. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. This was already stated at the beginning of this thread....

Another passage is where you compare FFXIV to other games having similar issues. That's downsizing the seriousness of the problem in FFXIV...because Quote: ”show me a MMO that doesn't have bots” So? How does that help FFXIV? So I should just fold my hands and say too bad..there are so many bots here...just like in other games..I will just let them cheat and sell items instead of honest players and accept they took over the marketboard? Just because something is happening in other games it doesn't mean that it isn't serious enough here to require MORE actions from SE than a few measley RMT reports every week.

Why should I find another part of the game that interests me if this was what I loved to do ingame? As a paying customer I should have access to and be able to enjoy and have fun in ALL of FFXIV and not just what isn't bot infested!

I actually used to love this game but I just stopped playing while still paying my sub (wonder for how long) because I can't keep looking at ingame how SE is neglecting the marketboard botting.
We as paying customers should not accept that SE isn't taking appropiate and adequate actions.

[TheLoveJenovan]

tierney12, I'm compiling a list of bot rings to send to the SE STF every Thursday. On Louisoix, it looks like the Louisoix Bank FC (https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3248388301557/) is the FC bot ring. It's currently ranked 7th for the server. Can you confirm?

If you'd like to add more bot rings to the list, feel free to post them on the discord (https://discord.gg/4usVDw). So far, we have 24 bot rings over 135 accounts.

[Jojoya]

I think some people interpret your posts as having a defeatist attitude, and they're hoping to find a solution to the problem with this thread.

Get ready for massive wall of text.

The solution is not within the power of the player base to enact. It's not even within SE's ability to enact (outside of one extreme method I'll talk about below that SE would never do).

What is the solution? The solution is for players to stop using bots and RMT. Only those who use those things have the power to enact the solution.

That's not going to happen. Human beings are hardwired to do whatever it takes to get what they need or want, it's a survival trait. It takes a moral code being imposed on us at an early age to teach us to ignore the urge to cheat to get what we need/want if we can't get it through conventional methods. Obviously that moral code is not successfully taught to everyone. They're going to cheat. Block one of their methods and they'll find another to use.

SE can put deterrents into place but it doesn't solve the bot problem. Ban an account and the player who likes to cheat through botting will simply get a new account (sometimes using false personal information to make it harder to connect the new account with a banned account) and start botting all over again. It doesn't bother them, they've usually got plenty of disposable income to keep buying new accounts.

Change the game's code to block whatever hack bots are currently using and the bot programmers find new hacks to use. We know that SE does this on a regular basis because we watch the behavior of the RMT farming bots change over time. Remember the trains of flying bots through the cities and low level zones at the start of Shadowbringers? We don't see them doing it anymore because SE found a way to block that particular bot behavior. SE is not sitting on their heels ignoring the problem like some want to claim.

If they find ways to block the RMT farming bots, why aren't they doing the same with the market bots? There's a big risk in changing game code - you can cause problems for legitimate players as much as the bots. Do something that prevents a bot group from trading items between characters and you'll likely prevent players from being able to trade. Do something that keeps a bot from changing their prices and you'll probably keep players from being able to change their prices. You end up with the real players angry because their game play is hindered while those using the bots really don't care because the bot is doing all the work.

What to do? SE is stuck in the position of trying to balance the benefits to the player base with the potential harm done to the player base by any measures they enact to hinder the bots.

Could they be more aggressive in banning accounts regardless of it not solving the problem? Probably, but then they run the risk of having too many false positives. A player base might be angry that bots exist but it flies into a rage when too many players get swept up by false positives during a ban wave. Players begin to fear that they or their friends will be next, and that they'll have to fight with account support for weeks to get reinstated (which isn't always successful). In the meantime, the player using the bot returns on a new account and is back in business within a couple of days.

If someone can come up with a genuine, reasonable solution that lies with the hands of the player base or SE to enact, that would be great. Collecting lists of suspect FCs to send to SE isn't a solution, even if it makes someone feel better because they're doing what little is within their power. SE probably has a more extensive list of suspect FCs and characters they're already watching.

I know the subject of using something similar to WoW's Warden has come up many times. Evidently that sort of program has been ruled as violating privacy laws in some countries because PCs are commonly shared between users and only one of those users would be consenting to its installation and privacy policy. It's understandably not a legal mess that SE wants to tangle with and they're probably not inclined to remove those countries from the list of eligible countries of residence in the User License Agreements so they could implement a Warden type program.

SE could remove gil from the game completely since it's gil related activities that encourage most (not all) botting. I doubt that would go over well with players since face to face trading is impractical compared currency purchases off the MB. Players would just end up adopting some other game item as the new form of currency (Fine Sand, anyone?) then cheaters would start botting again to get whatever was adopted.

What's the one method I referred to above that SE could do to stop the bot problem but won't?

Remove all PC support for the game and limit it to PS4 (and PS5 once they're supporting that). As far as I know, the bots are run solely on PC/Steam accounts. I don't think there are any devices that can run programmed scripts and send the commands to a PS4 through the controller interface (I could be wrong about that). SE isn't going to drop support for more than half the game's subscriber base. That would be a major financial blow.

Am I a defeatist? A defeatist automatically expects to fail at their task.

I'm a paying customer here to enjoy playing a game. That's my task. I'm going to go do it and I'm going to it despite the annoyances that are bots.

If I encounter a character displaying behavior that's typical of something controlled by a bot and not a human being, I'll report it and detail what makes me think it's a bot.

If I'm buying from the marketboard I do my best to choose the listings from what I think are real players, not bots, even though that means I'm usually paying 2-3 times more. I don't mind paying more - I'm still making gil selling things on the MB myself. I have plenty to spend.

I trust SE to take what measures they reasonably can to combat bots without doing things that will negatively impact my game play. I know it's a hard job and they're working hard at it, even if to our eyes the results seem insignificant.

I haven't been defeated here. I'm succeeding at my task. I haven't let the bots stop me from enjoying the game though I do still feel the annoyance at times.

But some of the other posters in this thread are defeatists. Their task is the same as mine - to enjoy playing a game. They've decided it's impossible as long as bots exist and they refuse to look at the other options within their power to make it possible.

[TheLoveJenovan]

Jojoya, I'm replying to you even though I said I wouldn't. I read your post. What are you hoping to achieve in arguing your position? To have people stop complaining about bots on a thread about bots?