FFXIV is too simplistic and bland

[DrWho2010]

gamers don't have XI style play time to invest in anymore. that's a big design issue to get around.

[tymora]

gamers don't have XI style play time to invest in anymore. that's a big design issue to get around.

Yep, no longer a student with lots of time...haha...now working full time + wife + kids.
I kind of appreciate this theme park idea. Can be better but its ok.

[Taebok]

If I go to a restaurant and I don't like what's on the menu, I don't issue a long list of "suggestions" they could make so the restaurant could fit my personal taste.
I go to another restaurant.

[Shurrikhan]

gamers don't have XI style play time to invest in anymore. that's a big design issue to get around.

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that an experience like XI's itself requires massive amounts of playtime per week, or even necessarily large chunks at a time, to enjoy.

I had some of the most fun I'd had in years playing WoW Classic or XIV 1.x... far, far more casually than I'd played retail WoW, let alone XIV.

The issue you seem to be describing only comes when you can no longer enjoy the ways to spend your time granularly (e.g. in crafting, in hunting, in exploration, in doing the quest here or there) and instead feel like there's nothing to the game outside of comparatively lengthy pre-packed pieces of content -- when the leveling itself is no longer enjoyable in its own right, but is instead solely a gatekeeper to "the real game".

Yes, inconveniences that resulted in it taking longer to partake in content was part of the XI experience, but was it fundamental to it? Would it have somehow fallen apart if it that weren't quite the case? More importantly, would people be unable to enjoy all those things the game offered outside of set content -- all that could be enjoyed at one's own pace -- if the game weren't held back elsewhere by older systems, or instead used more modern systems to flesh out its world (and, in that, content that can be done at one's own pace) even further?

[tymora]

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that an experience like XI's itself requires massive amounts of playtime per week, or even necessarily large chunks at a time, to enjoy.

There was a time when in FFXI, 5k exp/hour is considered awesome. It takes months to finish level up one class/job to level cap.
There was a time when relics cost an obscene amount of playtime to complete. Mine took 2, almost 3 years.
There was a time when people spend 3 hours camping a single HNM...for a ~5% drop rate.
There was a time when drop rates are so pitiful, people wait in line for months, even years to get their turn for an item. People come up with distribution systems that require player participation (i.e. time). If you don't put in the "massive" amounts of playtime, expect to wait a long time too.
There was a time when you need a party to level up. So some people spend ages waiting...(in Jeuno)...for parties...and no there was no party finder.
There was a time when running a dungeon needs you to walk up to the actual entrance of a dungeon.
There was a time when HNMs are locked behind zone barriers, in zones filled with lethal mobs. Just getting a group to the HNM takes an hour or two.

[Shurrikhan]

There was a time when in FFXI, 5k exp/hour is considered awesome. It takes months to finish level up one class/job to level cap.
There was a time when relics cost an obscene amount of playtime to complete. Mine took 2, almost 3 years.
There was a time when people spend 3 hours camping a single HNM...for a ~5% drop rate.
There was a time when drop rates are so pitiful, people wait in line for months, even years to get their turn for an item. People come up with distribution systems that require player participation (i.e. time). If you don't put in the "massive" amounts of playtime, expect to wait a long time too.
There was a time when you need a party to level up. So some people spend ages waiting...(in Jeuno)...for parties...and no there was no party finder.
There was a time when running a dungeon needs you to walk up to the actual entrance of a dungeon.
There was a time when HNMs are locked behind zone barriers, in zones filled with lethal mobs. Just getting a group to the HNM takes an hour or two.

And did the existence of those pieces of content and their limitations prevent people with less than two hours at a time to spend from enjoying the game on the whole?

Did never hitting cutting edge raiding prevent your typical player from enjoying the game?

Is a journey so impossible to enjoy satisfactorily so long as its ending isn't easily accessible to everyone?

For my own part, I'd rather that the processes were enjoyable than that I am necessarily able to complete everything there is on offer while working a full-time job.

And the funny thing is that, for the most part, having an enjoyable process and a sense of accessibility aren't even mutually exclusive, so long as you don't mistake enjoyability for a matter of percents and quotas. That Ultimate exists outside my reach (or, for that matter, desires) doesn't devalue what is in my reach except by consequence of development time spent -- and there's no way my range of desired content is going to take advantage of the expertise of those battle designers or of reused assets to the extent that Ultimate would, so I'm not about to begrudge them something that, even given the relatively small population of those interested in Ultimate vicarious, or the even smaller population of those actually progressing through it, is ultimately still efficient.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

And did the existence of those pieces of content and their limitations prevent people with less than two hours at a time to spend from enjoying the game on the whole?

Did never hitting cutting edge raiding prevent your typical player from enjoying the game?

Is a journey so impossible to enjoy satisfactorily so long as its ending isn't easily accessible to everyone?

For my own part, I'd rather that the processes were enjoyable than that I am necessarily able to complete everything there is on offer while working a full-time job.

And the funny thing is that, for the most part, having an enjoyable process and a sense of accessibility aren't even mutually exclusive, so long as you don't mistake enjoyability for a matter of percents and quotas. That Ultimate exists outside my reach (or, for that matter, desires) doesn't devalue what is in my reach except by consequence of development time spent -- and there's no way my range of desired content is going to take advantage of the expertise of those battle designers or of reused assets to the extent that Ultimate would, so I'm not about to begrudge them something that, even given the relatively small population of those interested in Ultimate vicarious, or the even smaller population of those actually progressing through it, is ultimately still efficient.

Considering I wasn't even able to make it out of the level 20 area for lack of being able to find leveling parties yes, it did impact my enjoyment of the game lol.

[DrWho2010]

And did the existence of those pieces of content and their limitations prevent people with less than two hours at a time to spend from enjoying the game on the whole?

If I've spent my two hours i have to play that day and accomplished nothing I consider that a complete waste of my time and thus reduce my enjoyment of the game that day (and possibly sour the next time i'm able to play as well).

Did never hitting cutting edge raiding prevent your typical player from enjoying the game?

What the "typical player" wants is entirely too subjective a idea to assign enjoyment of the game and encompasses too many variables to gauge said enjoyment. That being said if i was a savage raider and was forced to step back from the scene because of other obligations my personal enjoyment factor would be affected.

Is a journey so impossible to enjoy satisfactorily so long as its ending isn't easily accessible to everyone?

Again a very subjective thing.

an enjoyable process and a sense of accessibility aren't even mutually exclusive

IMO they are very intrinsically linked.

so long as you don't mistake enjoyability for a matter of percents and quotas.

again this is your opinion, which not everyone else would share.

[Shurrikhan]

There was a time when
There was a time when
There was a time when
There was a time when
There was a time when
There was a time when
There was a time when

And yet none of those things are true now, so why would we say that a more involved or fleshed out open world experience, for instance, requires a lack of QoL features or painfully long grinds?

Considering I wasn't even able to make it out of the level 20 area for lack of being able to find leveling parties yes, it did impact my enjoyment of the game lol.

And again, is that because the game was fundamentally dependent on lack of QoL features, or was that just a failing of the time (that has since been addressed)?

Does "Open World is relevant for more than just as long as it takes to do the relevant MSQ and, if thus obliged, grind its limited rewards" = "You can't get past level 20" ?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

And yet none of those things are true now, so why would we say that a more involved or fleshed out open world experience, for instance, requires a lack of QoL features or painfully long grinds?



And again, is that because the game was fundamentally dependent on lack of QoL features, or was that just a failing of the time (that has since been addressed)?

Does "Open World is relevant for more than just as long as it takes to do the relevant MSQ and, if thus obliged, grind its limited rewards" = "You can't get past level 20" ?

The problem there is, people tend to tell you xi was only good during that era, and that all of the qol ruined the game. So yes, I'm basing my experience off of what people say was xis best.