SMN Why don't we hear about egi glamours anymore?

[Karshan]

The last time they mentioned Egi-Glamours was actually during one of the Live Letter Reruns in May/June (don't remember exactly), where it was said they are still coming but they "weren't at liberty to talk about it" (at least accordng to the Reddit translation)
Just thought I'd point that out, since that Information seems to have been missed by many.



For plenty of people, including myself, the "pet part" of the job is a major drawing point, and pretty much every thread on SMN is a major indicator of that. So no, they should not just remove it.
The playerbase as a collective needs to stop asking SE to take things from one part of the playerbase just to serve another one, things like compromise and happy mediums exist for a reason.
Besides, I for one would like for SE to actually FIX an issue for once rather then just gloss over or delete it.

I wouldn't want pet removed from the game, but adressed to a class better designed for it and that revolves better around it. It could take the DOTs away as well.
I completely agree about not purely removing / erasing a feature like pets cause as you said it is a drawing factor AND iconic for MMOs. However due to that it parasited FF14 Summoner to the point where it was not a FF summoner (the FF part is very important to a lot of people as well) and a just a generic MMO smn.

We want a FF Summoner. Big primals, come for a limited time, spiky massive damage. It can't be done like a LB, so the current way with Demis is in my sense the way to go and a perfect compromise with MMO functionnalities. To me they should be working on a DPS class that can host all pets/dots related stuff, to "free" SMN and increase the focus on transes and Demis.

So I don't want a "less and instead" I want a "more, and different". A new class, still pets in the game, a better synergy for SMN kit (and not 4 disparate chunks) as well as the new one, and the "job fantasy" of getting closer to an FF SMN ; I see it as an all win situation, but I could miss something and I'd be glad to hear your feedback.

[HeulGDarian]

I wouldn't want pet removed from the game, but adressed to a class better designed for it and that revolves better around it. It could take the DOTs away as well.
I completely agree about not purely removing / erasing a feature like pets cause as you said it is a drawing factor AND iconic for MMOs. However due to that it parasited FF14 Summoner to the point where it was not a FF summoner (the FF part is very important to a lot of people as well) and a just a generic MMO smn.

We want a FF Summoner. Big primals, come for a limited time, spiky massive damage. The current way with demis is in my sense the way to go. So to me they should be working on a DPS class that can host all pets/dots related stuff to increase SMN transes and Demis.

So I don't want an "less and instead" I want a "more, and different"

It is more and different.You People think demis and egis are this 2 completely different unrelated things that dont work, but look at them.
The only thing different between them is one stays on the field and has 2 extra attacks.
Also you people who want an FF summoner need to go recheck the games, youve been ranting how this isnt an ff summoner in a game series where literally every iteration is supposed to be different. The job that summons something and then goes away is the worst most superficial description the FF summoner gets.
Even the remove dots doesnt make sense, Summoner in many of the games had to borrow spells from blm or whm. Now that they made a stand alone magic system for him and him alone , now its not summoner like?
We are 3 expansions in, How summoning work has been explained, you got a whole city of summoners to see how the job is supposed to be, and even the devs in their story say its omnipotent.
5.0 has shown that SE is detouched to how smn works , aetherflows removal having destroyed most of the fluidity of the job, and pheonix being binded with trance has put the nail in the coffin on it. A major reason for that is This arguing, Its been 3 exapansions in , it is safe to assume they wont change summoner thematicly. Can we pls stop spamming the forums on the mention of Summoner?

[Gallus]

There are quite a few different things between Egis and Demis. For a start, Egis don't ever start attacking until the SMN does or until you command them to do so, this makes min maxing SMN with egis fairly tedious. Against bosses that jump a lot or that move a lot the Egis spend quite a lot of time running from one place to another, that honestly sucks too. Then you have certain Egi actions that get cancelled or that ghost. How Enkindle is still an OGCD is beyond me. Devotion is useless bloat.

The Demis are a lot better. They attack each time you perform an action, their visuals are a lot cooler, they don't care about bosses moving and they don't stick to target 1 when you've just switched to target 2 (*cough Egis *cough*). Egis damage is so laughable too at this point you can't even compare it to DoWs autoattacks, it can't even be qualified as a glorified DoT because you'd need to compare it to a 20 potency DoT which I don't believe even exists?

I would most definitely sign for an only Demi rotation at level 90 in the next expansion. Egis are overstaying for me at this point.

[HeulGDarian]

There are quite a few different things between Egis and Demis. For a start, Egis don't ever start attacking until the SMN does or until you command them to do so, this makes min maxing SMN with egis fairly tedious. Against bosses that jump a lot or that move a lot the Egis spend quite a lot of time running from one place to another, that honestly sucks too. Then you have certain Egi actions that get cancelled or that ghost. How Enkindle is still an OGCD is beyond me. Devotion is useless bloat.

The Demis are a lot better. They attack each time you perform an action, their visuals are a lot cooler, they don't care about bosses moving and they don't stick to target 1 when you've just switched to target 2 (*cough Egis *cough*). Egis damage is so laughable too at this point you can't even compare it to DoWs autoattacks, it can't even be qualified as a glorified DoT because you'd need to compare it to a 20 potency DoT which I don't believe even exists?

I would most definitely sign for an only Demi rotation at level 90 in the next expansion. Egis are overstaying for me at this point.

Yes cause pheonix doesnt miss his first auto unless you do some dance around it like triple weave , and both demis dont miss their akh morn even if it visually appears if you cast it near the end. Demis dont need you to attack or tell them to attack unlike egis? idk having to attack so that they attack and having to click akh morn to use akh morn sounds like you command them to. Also how about moving being a problem since the demis prioritise that first? Also did we miss the fact enkindle is an ogcd in both demis and egis? What does demi enkindle gets the pass cause its cooler looking? And devotion is a bloat? Energy siphon is a bloat your 5% dps on all on the other hand isnt a bloat.
You can hate the egis but dont try to glorify the demis.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

I wouldn't want pet removed from the game, but adressed to a class better designed for it and that revolves better around it. It could take the DOTs away as well.
I completely agree about not purely removing / erasing a feature like pets cause as you said it is a drawing factor AND iconic for MMOs. However due to that it parasited FF14 Summoner to the point where it was not a FF summoner (the FF part is very important to a lot of people as well) and a just a generic MMO smn.

We want a FF Summoner. Big primals, come for a limited time, spiky massive damage. It can't be done like a LB, so the current way with Demis is in my sense the way to go and a perfect compromise with MMO functionnalities. To me they should be working on a DPS class that can host all pets/dots related stuff, to "free" SMN and increase the focus on transes and Demis.

So I don't want a "less and instead" I want a "more, and different". A new class, still pets in the game, a better synergy for SMN kit (and not 4 disparate chunks) as well as the new one, and the "job fantasy" of getting closer to an FF SMN ; I see it as an all win situation, but I could miss something and I'd be glad to hear your feedback.

Feedback? Sure! Gonna use some of my other post for that tho, since I've already made a few of my point in other places. ^^"

I'll keep my Egi, thank you very much.

I've always loved the concept of summoning, but the way earlier iterations of the Job present it as more of a gimmicky Black Mage has always felt lackluster.
It wasn't until summoning became more interactive that It truly started to shine, so i feel going back one-hit-wonder summoning would be a disservice to not only the job but the concept a a whole.

Given the Jobs evolution towards interactivity I always thought that a pet class would be a nice fit for the Job in an MMO, so I'm pretty happy with the general idea and think it functions well enough as this game iteration of Summoner.
Its certainly not flawless, there's plenty of things they could do better; but it's far from broken enough to require a complete overhaul - which should always be a last resort anyway. Most issues are either fixable or unrelated to the Egi in the first place, and any complaints about the aesthetics will hopefully be adressed whenever Egi-Glam are rolled out (which they've recently confirmed they are still working on btw.)

I would also like to point out that the FF-Franchise as a whole didn't survive as long as it did by blindly clinging on to tradition; the games have never been afraid to change and evolve concepts, ideas and Jobs depending on the setting, medium and technology at the time, and if I'm reading this thread - heck even the entire Forum sometimes - I feel some people would do good remembering that.
Don't get me wrong; It's fine to not like the way this game handles Summoner (or any job for that matter), but asking the devs to change it completely when theres clearly plenty of people enjoying at least the basic idea is not.

Two things here:
First of all, Jobs evolve through time technology and genre, they always have. Personally to me, this iteration is no less a "proper" FF Summoner than FFX' or FFIVs. It just so happens to be different, because the Medium/Genre is different.
Of course I understand that different people like different things about their favourite Jobs, but its because of that that I'll always keep arguing for compromises.
I want as many people as possible to be happy with the jobs representation, not cherrypick a specific group that gets to have their needs met, and I do believe there are ways to do that.
Secondly, I think its important to remember that every rework comes at a cost, and everyone who pays attention to the class design mess we have since ShB should be aware of that.
With the number of Jobs on the rise every expansion takes more resources for Job adjustments alone, and every rework just adds to that.
My believe is that the opportunities to rework Jobs just willy-nilly has long since passed and reworks should be kept to cases in which Jobs become simply unplayable; and Summoner is far from that point.
I'd rather they spend ther resources evolving the Job(s) further and smoothing out issues than try for a rework that might very well fail and even take attention away from other Jobs issues in the process.

Another thing the Quote doesn't mention is the fact that the devs have already indicated that they have no interest in developing another pet-based class outside of the Limited Jobs system; which is a big yikes for me.
Don't get me wrong, if there were unlimited resources and interest by devs in making another pet class (with similar "magic" flavour! not interested in Beastmaster personally) for general use I'd be a lot less invested in this topic, but... I just don't see it happening.

Now, thats it for "Meta" reasons, lets move on to gameplay:

What people suggesting Demi-Rotations never seem to realize is that while Demi feel oh-so powerful and spectacular they only get to feel that way because they are juxtaposed with the less impressive Egi.
If they were to make such a rework they'd either have to:
A) Balance all Demi in the Rotation to have the same output, including nerfing the current Demis; losing all feeling of build-up and progression in the process
B) Keep the output of the current Demi the same and have any new "in-between" Demis as weaker variants... which wouldn't be much different from what we have already, so the Devs might as well spare themselves the work

Then theres the issue that people seem to expect a rework to come with new models for the demi-fied Egis, which is just plain unrealistic. More likely it'll go the way MCH did and keep 90% of the aesthetic with only functional changes - likely including the Egis.
And on top of that theres actually a number of people that happen to enjoy SMN as (sort of) pet job, cutting that out would simply be unfair - reworks should never serve to take away entire gameplay concepts - at least in my opinion.

All in all I simply don't believe Summoner would benefit enough from a rework to warrant one; and I hope SE knows this.

Here's a compromise instead: "Demi-fy" the Egi-Actions while keeping the Egi themselves as permanent pets.
What I mean by this making Egi Auto-Attacks dependent on their SMNs GCD and turning Egi Assaults/Enkindles into ranged, targeted Actions.
This would likely fix a good amount of ghosting and Ability queueing issues while retaining the pet job-esque gameplay for those that like it.
It doesnt have to always be one group served to another groups detriment, and not every Job has to reflect ist "traditional" counterpart to a T (this is not only an FF Game, it's also an MMO, and Job design should be allowed to make use of the concepts that come with the medium)

Aesthetically speaking I understand people want upgrades to the current Egi, but thats quite literally what Egi-Glams are for. And who knows, maybe in time they'll even get around to upgrading the original 3 Egi.

You say you want big, flashy, powerful summons, and I agree that Demis are the compromise to take.
The issue is, to properly be that compromise they need room to breathe.
Demi-Rotations either take away that breathing room and turn Demis into Bard Songs, or give that breathing room but effectively change nothing.
There's also the (admittedly personal) matter of making Summons purely rotational... Summoner, to me, has always been about choice.
I want to summon Ifrit because he's the best man for the Job, not because it happens to be his turn; and a combination of the current Egi-roles, Egi glams, and Demis to cover the more powerful general-purpose Summons seems to me like the best solution given the circumstances.

As I haven't said much about Single Skill Summons yet I'm gonna do it here:
Summoner is not just about summoning, it's about what you summon. The Summons are the Stars of the show, and turning them into one-off animations would only mean they'd get drowned out by everything else thats happening; including the rest of SMN own skills.
Turning every Summon into a skill and then popping then in quick succession as gameplay often requires would just mean they'd visually cannibalize each other.

--

Ultimately, I'm not married to the job, I'm more than willing to leave it behind if SE chooses to make changes that I disagree with; and I do hope that should they choose to go this route they manage to pull it off and make as many people happy with it as possible.
That said, I do believe the time for mindlessly asking for reworks is over and people should instead put their heads together and come up with solutions that let everyone have theirs; using the concepts and mechanics that are already there.
I do have my thoughts on what those solutions could be, maybe I'll make a post in the SMN speculation thread when I find some time.

[Exodus-E]

Is this what summoner has been reduced to? Having summons be completely inconsequential and irrelevant? Does that really do the summoner legacy justice?

First of all, each FF game (post-FF10) has treated summoning differently.
If it really did the so-called "summoner legacy" justice, then it'd do nothing more but summon to attack all enemies (like a "flashier" spell) and that'd be it.
Making the Summoner itself a defenseless sitting duck if it had no summons to call upon (why do you think they mixed it up with other jobs?).

Secondly, this iteration of SMN is perfectly explained/adjusted/set up by the rules of this game's universe (lore).
Egis are a part of its identity, and they have been from the very start.

And finally, summons are definitely NOT inconsequential and irrelevant here.They are a part of your own rotation. The summons don't fight for you, the fight alongside you (even Yoshida commented on how the job had to be able to do stuff by itself).
As I said, it's just that we are already covered when it comes to pet "roles" from a balance stand-point.

Anyways, I do agree that useless stuff like Physick should be replaced (like say, with Demi-Phoenix's Everlasting Flight, but on demand), but I stand by my opinion that Egis should NOT be removed from this game.

[Karshan]

Feedback? Sure! Gonna use some of my other post for that tho, since I've already made a few of my point in other places. ^^"

that's quite a feedback !

A small misinterpretation : though I want big and cool summons, I don't want "oneshots" à la FF7/9 ; although it's my favourite iteration, I'm really aware it is absolutely NOT coherent in a MMO. I'm perfectly fine with Demis. For Egis I grew from "nice" when it was all there was, to "meh" when they invented Demis.

I myself dropped SMN (I play it casually and occasionnaly on Savage way after prog, it's still my main in my heart but not in the facts); It happened when its rotation became gated in 4.0 and they cut the "flow" I felt in HS - find the blocked sequence infuriating compared to how transe and aetherflow weren't mutually exclusive and could overlap in 3.0. To this day, although the flow improved I still find the kit a mess with some uninstinctive timers / mechanics. That's why I'm asking for a trimming, and since Demis are much more alluring to me, I ask for the trimming on other things, but not at the expense of other people's joy. I mean, the least possible. If what I /we ask really would make dozens of thousands of player miserable, without the new things bringing them fun, I'd rather backdown and let go of SMN.

I agree that it is unlikely another magic non limited pet wielder will rise, so that what I'm asking, if it happened, might ruin the fun for some people. But please be aware that the fun is already ruined for some others, and we just got half of it back with Demis. As well as a lot of people like Egis and dots, a lot prefer Transes and Demis. Although there are similarities between egis and Demis, the differences tilt the scales in favor of Demis but that's just me. I feel Phoenix transe extremely flowish and satisfying (during the transe itself, not the weird timer to keep in check to launch it optimally). I still think the pets and dots "prevent" SMN from being full fletched towards Summoning A Primal. So Pets and DOTs don't come into the job kit at "no cost".

I'm perfectly aware another rework is extremely costly and there is very little chance of it happening. But the moment the desire is dropped there is 0% chance of it happening. Hence we both feel like repeating

[HeulGDarian]

First of all, each FF game (post-FF10) has treated summoning differently.
If it really did the so-called "summoner legacy" justice, then it'd do nothing more but summon to attack all enemies (like a "flashier" spell) and that'd be it.
Making the Summoner itself a defenseless sitting duck if it had no summons to call upon (why do you think they mixed it up with other jobs?).

Secondly, this iteration of SMN is perfectly explained/adjusted/set up by the rules of this game's universe (lore).
Egis are a part of its identity, and they have been from the very start.

And finally, summons are definitely NOT inconsequential and irrelevant here.They are a part of your own rotation. The summons don't fight for you, the fight alongside you (even Yoshida commented on how the job had to be able to do stuff by itself).
As I said, it's just that we are already covered when it comes to pet "roles" from a balance stand-point.

Anyways, I do agree that useless stuff like Physick should be replaced (like say, with Demi-Phoenix's Everlasting Flight, but on demand), but I stand by my opinion that Egis should NOT be removed from this game.

small correction, even before ff10 summoning has been treated differently cause like this version every version after 6 is explained and adjusted by their games lore, with the exception of maybe ff7 and even then they got the whole materia thing attached to them. A summon in ff10 isnt the same summon as the one named the same in ff6. And every summoner isnt the same as a prior version .
to put an example in ff10 the high summoner is akin to a high priest , since she has protectors for her pilgrimage its obvious that summoners would learn white magic, in ff type 0 however alot of the summons reqcuire the wielders life essence making them essentialy be suicide bombers. And to put yet another one , in ff6 summons are humans and animals that got transformed from the magic of the 3 statues , it is why Terra can exist a halfhuman/half esper , The emperor wanting their powers had to kill them so in order for a summoner to exist there ofc theyd need enough power to kill them and for a mage that is black magic.

[HeulGDarian]

that's quite a feedback !

A small misinterpretation : though I want big and cool summons, I don't want "oneshots" à la FF7/9 ; although it's my favourite iteration, I'm really aware it is absolutely NOT coherent in a MMO. I'm perfectly fine with Demis. For Egis I grew from "nice" when it was all there was, to "meh" when they invented Demis.

I myself dropped SMN (I play it casually and occasionnaly on Savage way after prog, it's still my main in my heart but not in the facts); It happened when its rotation became gated in 4.0 and they cut the "flow" I felt in HS - find the blocked sequence infuriating compared to how transe and aetherflow weren't mutually exclusive and could overlap in 3.0. To this day, although the flow improved I still find the kit a mess with some uninstinctive timers / mechanics. That's why I'm asking for a trimming, and since Demis are much more alluring to me, I ask for the trimming on other things, but not at the expense of other people's joy. I mean, the least possible. If what I /we ask really would make dozens of thousands of player miserable, without the new things bringing them fun, I'd rather backdown and let go of SMN.

I agree that it is unlikely another magic non limited pet wielder will rise, so that what I'm asking, if it happened, might ruin the fun for some people. But please be aware that the fun is already ruined for some others, and we just got half of it back with Demis. As well as a lot of people like Egis and dots, a lot prefer Transes and Demis. Although there are similarities between egis and Demis, the differences tilt the scales in favor of Demis but that's just me. I feel Phoenix transe extremely flowish and satisfying (during the transe itself, not the weird timer to keep in check to launch it optimally). I still think the pets and dots "prevent" SMN from being full fletched towards Summoning A Primal.

I'm perfectly aware another rework is extremely costly and there is very little chance of it happening. But the moment the desire is dropped there is 0% chance of it happening. Hence we both feel like repeating

Heres the thing though. You assume that people want either egis and dots or trance and demis. No. people want both at the same time . As for preventing id say its the opposite if you consider pheonix spells as the next phase of ruin then, why not have a demi phase that would be the next phase of the dots. If they want demis to transform the smn spells then having more option on their spells such as , direct dmg (ruin) , dot (dots) , aoe gcd (tribind) ,aoe ogcd (painflare) , dot spread (bane), direct dmg ogcd (fester) ' means that you get more options for demi phases as well.
Even the egis can contribute to that with an upgraded form and the egi assaults.

[ArcaneCarbuncle]

that's quite a feedback !

A small misinterpretation : though I want big and cool summons, I don't want "oneshots" à la FF7/9 ; although it's my favourite iteration, I'm really aware it is absolutely NOT coherent in a MMO. I'm perfectly fine with Demis. For Egis I grew from "nice" when it was all there was, to "meh" when they invented Demis.

I myself dropped SMN (I play it casually and occasionnaly on Savage way after prog, it's still my main in my heart but not in the facts); It happened when its rotation became gated in 4.0 and they cut the "flow" I felt in HS - find the blocked sequence infuriating compared to how transe and aetherflow weren't mutually exclusive and could overlap in 3.0. To this day, although the flow improved I still find the kit a mess with some uninstinctive timers / mechanics. That's why I'm asking for a trimming, and since Demis are much more alluring to me, I ask for the trimming on other things, but not at the expense of other people's joy.

I agree that it is unlikely another magic non limited pet wielder will rise, so that what I'm asking, if it happened, might ruin the fun for some people. But please be aware that the fun is already ruined for some others, and we just got half of it back with Demis. As well as a lot of people like Egis and dots, a lot prefer Transes and Demis. Although there are similarities between egis and Demis, the differences tilt the scales in favor of Demis but that's just me. I feel Phoenix transe extremely flowish and satisfying (during the transe itself, not the weird timer to keep in check to launch it optimally). I still think the pets and dots "prevent" SMN from being full fletched towards Summoning A Primal.

I'm perfectly aware another rework is extremely costly and there is very little chance of it happening. But the moment the desire is dropped there is 0% chance of it happening. Hence we both feel like repeating

Oh, I wasn't under the impression that you wanted Oneshot summons, that paragraph was more in reference to some other posts I've seen over the past few .. well, years.

I absolutely agree that Trances/Demis are flashy and satisfying, the issue I see is that they only get to feel that way in the first place because they are limited. Right now they are Burst Phases, which is why they get to pack as much of a punch as they do.
If you had one Demi after another you'd either have to tone them down until they all have comparatively low output or you'd have to keep Bahamut/Phoenix as they are and keep anything in between at (roughly) the same output as the current Egi... at which point you might as well keep it as it is now.
Compare to Bard Songs; when they where limited - wether by CDs, MP or negative side effects - they got to feel impactful. Now that they are part of the basic gameplay loop with one Song active at all times their effects feel almost unnoticable without a parser. Their effects on Bard Gameplay feel also pretty arbitrary.
Also compare to AST cards which in ShB took a hit in potency to account for better reliability.
I worry a similar effect would happen with the Demis; which is why I'd prefer if they focused on improving and augmenting the two we have instead of turning them into mere gameplay phases with flashy graphics, while simultaneously nudging the Egi into a direction of feeling more integral and impactful on the gameplay.
Sometimes less is more, basically.

I do agree about the dots though, those would definitely be better served elsewhere and are much easier to design a new Job around.

EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, you mention liking HW SMNs combat flow.
Something like it could incredibly easy achieved under the current specification by just shifting some mechanics around.
Imagine EAs giving you Aethertrail instead of Further Ruin with Aethertrail being used to activate Trance/Summons.
This would realistically bring back some flexibility (assuming adjustments are made to EA for reliability) and give the Egi a logical and impactful function as enabler.
Lorewise this could be played off as your Egi protecting you while you prepare your bigger Summons.
Would something like this be a working compromise?