The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

[Veloran]

Oh, the WoL doesn't sacrifice other people! No, we sacrifice ourselves!

WoL is still alive, you might have noticed.

And are then shocked when those other people we were helping out also sacrifice themselves for us. We never have asked anyone to save us. Not Minfillia, not Moenbryda, not Harchefaut, not Yasale,

Here's the difference - Those people all died for us. All WoL "sacrifices" is time and energy, and even then we see that a part of him despises too much self-sacrifice on his part. When those people give their lives for you, they're not following your example, because your example is to win without dying for it.
Also all of those people were before 3.2 and 3.3 where you resolve not to let that happen again. The doomed future is arguable because A. it's not like WoL was there to stop it and B. time shenanigans makes it so that didn't happen to begin with.

The truth of the matter is, sometimes we are the "other person" whose problems someone else is solving. And denying people their right to chose to sacrifice themselves would make us the biggest hypocrite of all.

Okay, then you are a hypocrite, because you do exactly that with Estinien.

Look, in this patch we literally beat down the incarnation of self-sacrifice. WoL does not stand for that ideal. Azem wouldn't accept that then, and you don't accept that now. And I think WoL should take major issue with Hydaelyn coercing people to give up their lives to fight for her in a war they don't understand. People have been laying down their lives for her for thousands of years without really knowing why, or who they're really on the side of. That's not an acceptable status quo to just propagate into the future.

[ShadowMeowth]

Look, in this patch we literally beat down the incarnation of self-sacrifice. WoL does not stand for that ideal. Azem wouldn't accept that then, and you don't accept that now. And I think WoL should take major issue with Hydaelyn coercing people to give up their lives to fight for her in a war they don't understand. People have been laying down their lives for her for thousands of years without really knowing why, or who they're really on the side of. That's not an acceptable status quo to just propagate into the future.

It is precisely this self-sacrifice what triggers the DRK questline, and others sacrificing their lives for us (Haurchefant and Ysayle being the most prominent) is what weighs the heaviest in the WoL/D's mind. And while of course there were people who turned against Hydaelyn, there are two particular Warriors of Light we are told of in Stormblood, Ramza Beoulve and Tenzen, who gave into self-sacrifice as well, leaving their dear ones behind (Delita Heiral, Alma Beoulve, Orran Durai; Byakko, Suzaku, Genbu and Seiryu) because of this "chosen one's duty". Alma Beoulve herself, as a way to comfort Delita, tells him that "before he was your friend, before he was my brother, he was a Warrior of Light" (great comfort right there), and Ivalice being probably one of the first great kingdoms in the world after the Sundering, I wonder if their mentality was more Hydaelyn-worship-like back in those days.

[BlitzAceRush]

I mean just because we haven't died (We are the main character) doesn't mean we aren't self sacrificing, we constantly throw ourselves into horrible situations for the benefit of others, often with the precursor of "You're our only hope!" or "You'll likely die!" We just overcome, we still willingly throw ourselves into dangerous situations that could likely get us killed or seriously injured for the sake of others.

[Kesey]

If the logic we're given in 2.0 still holds true then yes, return to the Lifestream does undo tempering. (Ascians' corporeal forms can be repeatedly killed to no end due to their ability to cheat death.)

If we're to take Emet-Selch's account at face value, summoning Zodiark was a grim necessity to stop the Final Days. Summoning Hydaelyn was never a necessity, but a world where life exists as nothing more than livestock to feed a false deity in exchange for "miracles" has so many problems it's unreal. Third options are nice to have or try to make, but due to time constraints or unwillingness to compromise, sometimes there aren't any to be had.

We don't really know what Azem did in response to the summons. Something to keep in mind however is that we are not Azem: we are our own person, even if we have similar tendencies and possess (most of) Azem's soul. Further Azem's defining characteristic was aligning with anyone and everyone to do good; while s/he may not have condoned the summons of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, if their goals aligned there would be no reason not to work with them.

You need to go back to the ending of Anemnesis Anyder. That is the ending scene that looks different when you play through 5.3. What we can recognize as the revelation is that Venat becoming the heart of Hydaelyn is like Elidibus (become a primal) and even makes the remark that they will return in whatever form they choose. So really the question we need to be debating is who is/was Venat?

If you follow the other details of that conversation you will also note that summoning Zodiark doesn't actually fix the problem as noted by the 12 Hydaelyn Convocation members with Venat. They even say that the Zodiark Convocation refuses to even listen or debate the subject, probably referring to all of them being tempered by Zodiark, and that goes against a pillar of their society which hinges of debating subjects. The only solution that will save the star is to summon Hydaelyn. This is all agreed upon by Venat and his 12 Hydaelyn Convocation. Although this hasn't been confirmed, we can probably make a pretty educated guess the 12 remaining convocation members that summon Hydaelyn are the 12 gods of the humanoid races.

Regarding us being chosen, the scene at the end of Anemnesis Anyder refers to the "defector"who was most likely Azem. Azem was invited to the 14th seat of the Hydaelyn faction, but either refused or was unable to be contacted. Furthermore, we haven't seen much beyond Venat's decision to become the heart of Hydaelyn, so we're not sure if Azem joins the Hydaelyn faction or not. So this creates the misstep of how have we been reincarnated to be Hydaelyn's champion. We can probably assume this tidbit will be filled in later, but if Azem did not side with the Hydaelyn faction, they were off pursuing a 3rd option that is different from summoning either Zodiark or Hydaelyn.

Finally, regardless if we are Azem reincarnated or the "new" Azem, we still need to learn the missing information from what the "old" Azem did. We can't properly make the right choice between Zodiark, Hydaelyn, or the 3rd option until that's been cleared up. This is our second major philosophical hurdle, because we have evidence from the past says Zodiark is bad and Hydaelyn is bad, yet in the present we are Hydaelyn's champion.

[ShadowMeowth]

I am here mulling over this thing that Yoshi-P said we should look back to Heavensward to know where are we heading, and my mind is just processing how the whole thing with Hydaelyn and Zodiark might as well be the greater-scope-version of the Dragonsong War.

Let us recap: King Thordan and his knights twelve break the peace between dragons and Elezen, then Nidhogg seeks vengeance on them for Ratatoskr's murder, but he is badly wounded, though he felled Thordan in battle. Hraesvelgr surrenders one of his eyes to his brood-brother, allowing Nidhogg to blindly pursue his revenge. On the knights' side, Prince Haldrath takes both eyes of Nidhogg and gives up the throne as a wandering dragoon. Then, the ancestors of Houses Fortemps, Haillenarte, Durendaire and Dzemael decide to leave the throne empty, instead retelling Ishgard's history to hide their past sins. Over time, only the clergy knew the truth behind the Dragonsong War, a lie for which lives were needlessly lost in both sides: no one would listen the Dravanians' side and they were not willing to speak but to act, and the Ishgardians were regarded as the "good guys" of this tale. Change "Dravanians" for "Ascians" and "Ishgardians" for "inhabitants of the Source" and you will see that in the end, this is the very same old story of a war that (deliberately so) no one remembers how and why began. Prince Haldrath and Hraesvelgr might even fit as Azem, each one remaining "neutral", but allowing others to perpetuate the war by inaction.

[ObsidianFire]

WoL is still alive, you might have noticed.

Sacrificing yourself for other people doesn't automatically mean getting yourself killed for someone else. The Dark Knight quests revolve around how much you have sacrificed of yourself and yet you never died once.

Here's the difference - Those people all died for us. All WoL "sacrifices" is time and energy, and even then we see that a part of him despises too much self-sacrifice on his part. When those people give their lives for you, they're not following your example, because your example is to win without dying for it.
Also all of those people were before 3.2 and 3.3 where you resolve not to let that happen again. The doomed future is arguable because A. it's not like WoL was there to stop it and B. time shenanigans makes it so that didn't happen to begin with.

I can guarantee you all the people I mentioned never planned to actually die for the WoL. All they wanted to do is help us, because we needed it. Weather they would actually live or not wasn't on their minds. Which is exactly the same thing we do: help people who need someone else to help them. What that costs us isn't really something we stop and think about. Although, it almost did cost us ourselves in ShB, so...


If you want to include the list of people in the game who have sacrificed for the WoL without dying, than the list is mind-bogglingly huge. And includes most of the named characters in the game. We have a ton of help from other people to be who we are weather that be job instructors, the Scions the leaders of the city-states, etc. And sure, we do a lot for them too. But most sacrifices people make for each other end up being very reciprocal in nature and a benefit to both parties. So most people really don't think all that much about what we (and a lot of other characters) are actually doing for each other.

Okay, then you are a hypocrite, because you do exactly that with Estinien.

Are you kidding? We help Estinean kill Nidhogg. We go with him to the Churning Mists and help him hunt Nidhogg down and set things up so he can get his revenge. We're backing him 100% of the time. Unfortunately, the kids of Midgardsormr are really hard to kill and Nidhogg takes Estiean over. And we still stick around to help Estinean out of that problem too. And than Estinean returns the favor by holding off an Elidibus possessed Zenos and getting us to the Eorzean Alliance. We've got a lot of back-and-forth with Estinean where sometimes we help him and other times he helps us and neither of us are planning on dying while doing that any time soon.

Look, in this patch we literally beat down the incarnation of self-sacrifice. WoL does not stand for that ideal. Azem wouldn't accept that then, and you don't accept that now. And I think WoL should take major issue with Hydaelyn coercing people to give up their lives to fight for her in a war they don't understand. People have been laying down their lives for her for thousands of years without really knowing why, or who they're really on the side of. That's not an acceptable status quo to just propagate into the future.

I mean, we spent all of Shadowbringers taking in Light and almost becoming a Lightwarden. If you don't count that as self-sacrifice, I don't know what your definition of self-sacrifice actually is.

As far as we have seen, Hydaelyn never made anyone do anything they weren't already going to do without her help or power. She has never asked us to do anything in the game other than watch what the Ascians are doing and pay attention to them and know that where they go, death usually follows. As for how we were supposed to deal with the Ascians? She never tells us what to do. The only thing she tells us is "shine brightly in the darkness" which... we were arguably already doing before she even told us that. In fact, we're going around solving our chosen city-states latest Ascian plot before we even meet Hydaelyn. The only time I can really think of Hydaelyn telling us to do anything is when we've got Thancred and are trying to get Lahabrea out of him. That's when Hydaelyn tells us to "make a blade of light", which does the job in getting Lahabrea out of Thancred just like we wanted. Other than those two instances please tell me where Hydaelyn ever gives us a list of things we need to do for her before we've already started doing them?

Heck, we ask Hydaelyn for way more than she asks us to do anything. We ask her what her deal is with the Ascians, and she tells us about her and Zoidark's Conflict. We tell her about a Flood of Light that is going to hit the First Shard and Hydaelyn decides she can deal with it herself. And Minfillia decides she can finally do some world-saving of her own. So she hopefully won't have to rely on us (again)!

[Veloran]

Sacrificing yourself for other people doesn't automatically mean getting yourself killed for someone else. The Dark Knight quests revolve around how much you have sacrificed of yourself and yet you never died once.

Sacrificing of yourself doesn't mean giving your life, yes. And the DRK quests show how a part of WoL has serious issues with the burdens of his position. But when we're talking about self sacrifice, we're talking about lost lives. It's not like Azem quit his job because he'd had enough of having to represent Amaurot and solve issues around the world, he quit and opposed the summonings and their consequences specifically.

I can guarantee you all the people I mentioned never planned to actually die for the WoL.

Almost all of them acted with the knowledge they were directly putting their life at risk, if not ending it for sure. Moenbryda gave her aether to the siphon knowing she'd die, Minfilia ran back to be swept into the Lifestream to give her life to Hydaelyn, Harchefaut leapt in front of a spear of aether intended to kill the WoL, and Ysayle kamikazed herself into the Gration undoubtedly not thinking she would survive it. I'm not saying they were pre-planning to kill themselves ahead of time, but Harchefaut is the only one I'd even tacitly be willing to believe acted thinking he might survive.

Are you kidding? We help Estinean kill Nidhogg. We go with him to the Churning Mists and help him hunt Nidhogg down and set things up so he can get his revenge. We're backing him 100% of the time. Unfortunately, the kids of Midgardsormr are really hard to kill and Nidhogg takes Estiean over. And we still stick around to help Estinean out of that problem too.

Are you just, forgetting the point where he's literally begging you to kill him so that Nidhogg could be destroyed? Everyone aside from Alphinaud and yourself took Estinien for a lost cause, even the man himself, but you deny him his self-sacrifice and choose to save him no matter what.

I mean, we spent all of Shadowbringers taking in Light and almost becoming a Lightwarden. If you don't count that as self-sacrifice, I don't know what your definition of self-sacrifice actually is.

You didn't end up dying to do it and never intended to do so. Not to mention we've already established WoL is a hypocrite who is willing to take on risks and sacrifices that he wouldn't abide for others.

As far as we have seen, Hydaelyn never made anyone do anything they weren't already going to do without her help or power.

Having people act for you out of ignorance is coercion, and no the "she's just a dumb Primal" excuse doesn't make it any better.

As for how we were supposed to deal with the Ascians? She never tells us what to do.

She literally says, "The Ascians cannot be suffered to continue." If that isn't her telling you what to do, I don't know what is.

[ObsidianFire]

Okay, if you think "self-sacrifice" only "counts" when someone actually dies, then I have nothing more to discuss with you on the topic. We're using to completely different definitions for the same word phrase.

By the time Hydaelyn tells us the Ascians need to be taken out, we have already been working directly against their manipulations for a while. We found evidence that something bad was going on in the city state we started and were determined to get to the bottom of it... which just so happened to have an Ascian pulling the strings. Us and Hydaelyn are more collaborators working against the same force and have something the other needs. We have agency outside of the Lifestream; Hydaelyn has information about the Ascians we desperately need if we're going to combat them. We are more partners than goddess and follower.

[Veloran]

Okay, if you think "self-sacrifice" only "counts" when someone actually dies,

It "only counts" that way because we're talking about the sacrifices brought about by Zodiark and Hydaelyn, which were lives. It's true WoL has issues with the burdens of other types of sacrifices, but what we know he finds particularly unconscionable is when people lose their lives.

Hydaelyn has information about the Ascians we desperately need if we're going to combat them.

What information has she given up exactly? Because "THEY'RE DARKNESS, THEY'RE EVIL, THEY REJOICE IN DEATH, AND THEY CANNOT BE SUFFERED TO CONTINUE" isn't "information", it's a load of propaganda.

[Rannie]

Btw the literal meaning of self sacrifice is

self-sacrifice*noun

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self-sac·​ri·​fice*|*\*ˌself-ˈsa-krə-ˌfīs*also*-fəs*or*-ˌfīz**\

Definition of*self-sacrifice

:*sacrifice of oneself or one's interest for others or for a cause or ideal

First Known Use of*self-sacrifice

1591, in the meaning defined*above

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...self-sacrifice

So both views on the definition are correct however what the WoL does is Self Sacrifice even without dying. He/she would rather give their life than let others die. "For those we have lost, for those we can yet save"