DRK QOL changes for 5.4

[bundythenoob]

well the way I see it, you're both right. if we increase the resource generation, we have to increase the spending as well. Lyth made a good point about having both resources be equal in both power, generation rate, and spending rate, but Shao makes a good point too about the current implementation leaving us with only big burst attacks to spend during burst windows instead of spending in a consistent manner.

I think if 6.0 DRK were to have its generation buffed to STB levels, we might have to introduce costs to some of DRKs currently costless abilities, which could potentially make it too ridiculous. if we go with HW levels, we would need to receive new abilities that don't cost any resource to balance out what Lyth said (since we can't really make any non-spending skills out of our current kit without making TBN free, which would ruin it imo).

lets say for example:
CURRENT Mana Builders: Syphon, Stalwart, BW, Delirium (4 tools)
if we consider Syphon and Stalwart to be our 2 "consistent" builder tools, we could convert BW and Delirium into our 2 "burst" builder tools. If Delirium is changed into a bunshin-style ability that gives us stacks that make certain skills into multihits, then we could change CnS and Quietus to have lower potencies with inherit mana generation, so that Delirium could give us big bursts of mana back. if we change BW into bunshin stacks as well, then it might have to have its mana generation buffed to compensate for the extra spending, or maybe even post lv 80 via trait if a new spender is introduced.

PROPOSED mana spenders: Edge, Flood, Abyssal Drain, TBN/Shadowskin/Dark Arts (4 tools)
If we are to introduce more spenders, such as bringing abyss drain back, and implementing shadowskin at lv 30, we could potentially make use of increased building from syphon/stalwart at early levels, BW/Delirium for burst windows, as well as making sure that we have a matching number of building tools and spending tools. if there is no baby TBN however, we would either have to make a new skill that spends mana to correlate with our 4 building tools, or we COULD potentially reintroduce DA as a spender. IF TBN keeps the dark Arts proc, then we could introduce its baby version to keep in line with having 4 spending options; however, if TBN loses that proc, that's when we bring DA back as a spender, but I think this may be a little harder to balance due to potential potency increases making certain tools favourable over others. there's also the possibility of introducing a new mana spending tool post 80, but that might have to come with the aforementioned BW buff to compensate.

CURRENT Blood spenders: Quietus, Bloodspiller, Living Shadow (3 tools)
PROPOSED Blood builders: BW, Salted, Stalwart, and Souleater (4 tools)
I think IF we make Salted generate blood again, Blood might be in a decent spot in terms of having 2 consistent sources (Souleater + Stalwart) and 2 burst sources (BW + Salted) , but imo Blood Spenders shouldn't be used for "burst damage" aside from Esteem. Maybe Living Shadow could be changed so that Esteem copies our rotation 1:1 while consuming 5 blood per attack, but also generating 300mp per hit so as to bring back STB Delirium's 50blood -> 3000mp conversion value. we could even allow Bloodspiller to regain 3000mp under new Delirium as well, further emulating STB Delirium's conversion. perhaps a new skill could be introduced as an opposite version STB Delirium, where we could convert 3000mp into 50 blood to allow us to have Esteem available on demand? might fit in nicely for a burst window fix that the new Living Shadow would need in order to align with raid buffs.



Lastly, for DRK of the Azure, while I do agree that GNB and DRK should be a little harder to play/optimise due to the nature of their later unlocks, we all know that the existence of jump potions/story skips combined with DRKs HEAVY marketing as the posterboy for SHB means that a lot of new players will be drawn to both jobs, which means that their kits might be forever doomed to be casual friendly. who knows at this point.

All in all, you guys all bring good points. I'm just hoping someone at Square is reading all of this, because I can imagine seeing the current DRK (and SCH) degrade even further for the next xpac, which would just shatter my heart. if there's ONE thing I do want, it's for square to hire a dedicated tank and dedicated healer dev above all else suggested in this thread (and many others)

[Duskane]

personally i want Drk to have a similar game play mechanic to Bards Mage ballad as this is the closest thing to Low blow/reprisal procs anymore,
bring back scourge or make a new dot that can refresh C&S and AD(share cd for obvious reasons) and Salted Earth can also refresh them becoming a burst phase and so AD isnt a awkward aoe tool anymore.
I dont expect anything to change in ShB at best you'll get 11-12 second blood weapon to comfortably fit in that last Blood spiller.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I'm going to provide my closing thoughts on this debate since we keep reaching an impasse. We cannot agree or compromise on each others ideas... I have tried to compromise with my ideas for some of the other peoples ideas... but it's never enough... and it's the lack of compromise that the other people that go on the tank forums and go "Oh look the same person keeps complaining about DRK" or "Oh look another DRK complaint thread" and even I'm getting sick of the lack of compromise...


As far as 6.0 is concerned, and they REALLY screw up tanks and healers with even more homogenization, we are not the customers or fans to Square-Enix anymore... just take your limited time and money elsewhere if 6.0 fails to give you what you want... Meaning by 6.0, the Devs REALLY NEED to AIM TO AMAZE. No more half-***ing it...


If the Devs can make improvements to GNB identity with out giving into the homogenization, and can keep PLD identity in tact from this expansion by improving upon what they already have, then I will still support them, but they do need to listen to what the other tanks want, while also making sure that the other roles also get what they want, ESPECIALLY THE HEALERS.


I also expect the the next DRK complaint thread to have learned how to compromise but I would be asking for too much right there... so instead I ask you that everyone here on the forums at least consider a compromise...

[bundythenoob]

I'm going to provide my closing thoughts on this debate since we keep reaching an impasse. We cannot agree or compromise on each others ideas... I have tried to compromise with my ideas for some of the other peoples ideas... but it's never enough... and it's the lack of compromise that the other people that go on the tank forums and go "Oh look the same person keeps complaining about DRK" or "Oh look another DRK complaint thread" and even I'm getting sick of the lack of compromise...


As far as 6.0 is concerned, and they REALLY screw up tanks and healers with even more homogenization, we are not the customers or fans to Square-Enix anymore... just take your limited time and money elsewhere if 6.0 fails to give you what you want... Meaning by 6.0, the Devs REALLY NEED to AIM TO AMAZE. No more half-***ing it...


If the Devs can make improvements to GNB identity with out giving into the homogenization, and can keep PLD identity in tact from this expansion by improving upon what they already have, then I will still support them, but they do need to listen to what the other tanks want, while also making sure that the other roles also get what they want, ESPECIALLY THE HEALERS.


I also expect the the next DRK complaint thread to have learned how to compromise but I would be asking for too much right there... so instead I ask you that everyone here on the forums at least consider a compromise...

Thank you for all of your input. I understand your pain about us players trying to come to a compromise, and I understand your decision to exit the convo. I don't think its fair for us as players to have to come to compromises for a job we love. that should be the job of the developers. they should be the ones to filter all of our feedback and come up with a build that can satisfy everyone. expecting people to compromise for something that they may not even have the power to change is kind of meaningless, but do know your input might make a difference for the future.

I personally might not end up supporting the game if DRK and SCH don't get fixed for 6.0, but that's just because I cannot bring myself to play the gimped versions of the jobs i fell in love with. Thanks for all your help and feedback!

[Lyth]

It's not our job to reach a consensus. I personally disliked the changes to DRK in Stormblood. The decision to make DRK more accessible by removing the Darkside MP drain was unnecessary. Dark Arts was not designed as an MP dump substitute, and the animation was too long for it to be weaved between every single GCD. For that matter, the general response was that a lot of other people disliked it as well and thus voted for it to be changed on the forums. That's even including people who now claim that they had loved it all along through their retrospectoscopes. Go back and check your upvotes. What we have is not too far off what we all requested. Either way, you can only speak for yourself and let others decide if they agree or not.

I also feel that the main problem this expansion isn't so much job specific issues as it is tanking and fight design as a whole. I would like to see Living Dead be addressed and reworked (I think most DRK players do), and I think, broadly speaking, there can be a lot more done to flesh out individual job identities in a way that's more interesting. GNB showed that you can do a burst window without following the standard pattern of Requiescat/HS spam, IR/FC Spam, or Delirium/BS spam. But the broader issue is in giving tanking more raid value. If you make it accessible to the point that anyone can do it or that the consequences of failure are minimised, then people aren't going to want to invest time focusing on it as their primary role in the long run.

[WhyAmIHere]

It's not our job to reach a consensus. I personally disliked the changes to DRK in Stormblood. The decision to make DRK more accessible by removing the Darkside MP drain was unnecessary. Dark Arts was not designed as an MP dump substitute, and the animation was too long for it to be weaved between every single GCD. For that matter, the general response was that a lot of other people disliked it as well and thus voted for it to be changed on the forums. That's even including people who now claim that they had loved it all along through their retrospectoscopes. Go back and check your upvotes. What we have is not too far off what we all requested. Either way, you can only speak for yourself and let others decide if they agree or not.

I also feel that the main problem this expansion isn't so much job specific issues as it is tanking and fight design as a whole. I would like to see Living Dead be addressed and reworked (I think most DRK players do), and I think, broadly speaking, there can be a lot more done to flesh out individual job identities in a way that's more interesting. GNB showed that you can do a burst window without following the standard pattern of Requiescat/HS spam, IR/FC Spam, or Delirium/BS spam. But the broader issue is in giving tanking more raid value. If you make it accessible to the point that anyone can do it or that the consequences of failure are minimised, then people aren't going to want to invest time focusing on it as their primary role in the long run.

calling it now.
6.0 Delirium will be reworked again and will replace DRK's 123 combo with another 123 combo with different effects, and we'll get scourge back with the sonic break treatment. An entirely new kit with a bunshin-treatment'd Blood Weapon, and LD will only afflict the DRK with an esuna cleanseable DoT if walking dead aint cleansed properly. shadowskin returns and gets upgraded to TBN at 70. DRK's 81-90 kit will be boring and unremarkable to mitigate another another redesign for the class with the capstone ability being meh overall. Salted earth removed due to being too hard to use. Abyssal being removed so it's "HP regeneration" can be backed elsewhere into the kit. Bloodspiller gets upgraded at level 86-ish with a move that has more potency than fell cleave, but to compensate it has the sonic break treatment done to it as well and is only useable every 30 seconds.

[Duskane]

i wouldn't hate that....

[Imuka]

There is a certain problem why it is so hard and near impossible to reach ONE real consensus or real compromise about the DRK.
The class was changes so drasticly with every expansion, that we basicly have a few groups who see the class in completely different ways and want it to change in very different directions.

[Seku]

There is a certain problem why it is so hard and near impossible to reach ONE real consensus or real compromise about the DRK.
The class was changes so drasticly with every expansion, that we basicly have a few groups who see the class in completely different ways and want it to change in very different directions.

Well yeah. They took what was traditionally a DPS focused job that gave up it's health to do damage and attempted to make it into a tank. Then on top of that gave it's one main identity to Warrior and instead gave it something that Rune Fencers, mystical knights, ect ect are better known for, which is preventing magical damage. They aren't going to find something that everyone agrees upon because they already split the community and didn't have a good idea coming into this with what they wanted to do with the job.

[RyuDragnier]

Well yeah. They took what was traditionally a DPS focused job that gave up it's health to do damage and attempted to make it into a tank. Then on top of that gave it's one main identity to Warrior and instead gave it something that Rune Fencers, mystical knights, ect ect are better known for, which is preventing magical damage. They aren't going to find something that everyone agrees upon because they already split the community and didn't have a good idea coming into this with what they wanted to do with the job.

I still find it ironic that HW DRK was the best iteration of it and then they destroyed a job with a perfectly good identity to give the other tanks things they didn't need. PLD and WAR didn't need Low Blow, Reprisal, or Dark Dance (which was changed to Anticipation). DRK also didn't need to lose 3.x Delirium or Scourge. All that was needed for the tanks to have found balance back then (correct me if I'm wrong) was for PLD to be able to block magic damage. But then they murdered our child, destroyed him and turned him into a monster for SB. All I want for 6.x is the return of the 2nd DPS combo, that's it.