Thread: DRK QOL changes for 5.4

Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want DRK to have more combos, it should be something analogous to MNK in which you can jump between two different combos so long as you follow the correct order. An easy way to do this is to have one combo (1 2 3) restore MP, and a second (1 A B) build up blood, such that you can mix and match (i.e. 1 A 3 or 1 2 B) however you like to build up MP and blood as needed. The caveat would be that each step (2 vs A or 3 vs B) should be equivalent in terms of both potency and resource generation.

The idea of DRK having a free flow combo system could work in theory, but in practice you would need to make sure it doesn't cause the same problems that MNK runs into, then you have GNB where their second combo is a burst combo that doesn't even interrupt the current combo you were on when you decide to use it. Though you did provide an idea for my more combos suggestion.

Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want to incentivise shields, you have to reward the player for defending themselves and their teammates with shields. Replace the Darkside timer with a number from 1 to 100. Every time your shields mitigate some damage, the meter goes up, which in turn increases your attack speed and power up to some maximum threshold, while reducing the recasts of some offensive oGCDs. Let it then decay over time, with some abilities (let's say Edge and Flood) that halt the decay. It should feel like you're building up offensive momentum as you shield more and more damage.

I think that would be part of the leveling process from 80-90 or whatever the next level cap will be...

Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not sure what the skill progression should be while levelling. It's okay for TBN to come a bit later. Sometimes it actually works out really well when a missing piece of the puzzle slips in to make everything else work out better.

This more of my personal observation but I think that trying to figure what the skill progression should be like while leveling might be the source of a good chunk of the disagreement that a lot of the DRK discussions tend to fall apart at... I could be grasping at straws here though...

Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't play MNK nearly enough nowadays to have a sense of what problems it runs into.

I think the main problems with MNK are "Tornado Kick sucks" followed by "Six-sided Star sucks" and maybe "Enlightenment is useless when Howling Fist was way better for what Enlightenment is trying to do" and this is more of a "me" thing, but Brotherhood should affect all damage dealt and not just physical damage dealt...

Originally Posted by Lyth

The problem with combo systems is that they're very strict about order. The end result is that you can pretty much map out all your button presses for a given fight. There's this strange mentality in this game's playerbase that more combos and more rigid rotations make for more challenging gameplay, which is obviously false. If you can plan out your optimal next 1000 keypresses in advance, then you can train a monkey or clever robot to do the same. The appeal of resource-based jobs is that, when designed well, they should actually challenge your neocortex a bit. We absolutely don't need DRK to play more like PLD or GNB, and really speaking, the main reason to add a second combo is to add a second combo.

A good argument, but considering how most boss fights are scripted anyway(which is it's own debate by itself) the start of the argument is no longer a problem because of the script, and the rest of the argument doesn't follow the script and if you're not following the script and because the script doesn't allow enough deviation based on stats or even min. ilvl(again, another debate by itself), and the only resource based job that is actually well designed is probably Red Mage... and even that has to follow the script for boss fights...

Originally Posted by Lyth

Combos are just your background button presses in-between actual decisions. With DRK, there's only two ways to keep the resource-generation idea alive and have a two combo system. The first is to flip between a resource spending and a resource using combo. Heavensward did this, in a manner of speaking. The second is to flip between an MP generating and a blood generating combo. The second hasn't been tried yet, but it really relies on the amount of blood and MP generated at each step to be equivalent. If one combo generates more equivalent potency than the others, then you're just going to use the one combo.

So... Resource generating combo, and when you have enough 1 the necessary resources for 1 burst combo use it, but if that burst combo also generates another resource for a separate burst combo then you also use it... I could be interpreting that wrong though...

Though this idea does sound like my Dark Arts rework for Edge of Darkness/Shadow, Bloodspiller, Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Quietus, and Flood of Darkness/Shadow idea, just very different... I still like it though...

Originally Posted by Lyth

I think job action progression isn't all that important. The levelling system exists to incrementally introduce you to the job so that you don't get overwhelmed with all your actions at once. But with the advent of deep dungeons and skip potions, it's not all that important. There are restrictions, too. TBN has to be forever be introduced at 70, because of that story line. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Let's get DRK functioning at its best at max level, and we can worry about the levelling experience afterwards.

Yeah... Then we all remember Blue Mage exists and how THAT has a different progression system...

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I still firmly believe that the leveling kit is just as important as the overall package, not only for people who are level syncing to do everyday content with friends, but for people who are leveling the job throughout the story. if the job doesnt naturally get stronger and have a solid base at all the capstone levels, it won't feel as strong as others, and thus won't feel as fun to play. just compare lv 50/60 DRK to lv 50/60 PLD or GNB, and you'll get what I mean. the other 2 jobs feel much more "complete" than DRK does.

Yeah, this the part where even I get stumped on because I do think DRK should be for people who are already familiar with tanking and want a bit more challenge with optimizing DPS AND mitigation, and kinda like GNB(considering how late you unlock each of those jobs/classes), while also steamrolling through earlier dungeons as you learn how they play/feel.

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I don't think the current build really needs any tweaks to its leveling progression kit other than the ones i mentioned in the original post. even if we don't get a form of active mitigation like the other tanks until lv 70, as long as we get stalwart and missionary earlier the job will feel much better to play and level up, and as long as we can deal more damage to make up for the lack of mitigation until TBN at lv 70, it wouldnt be a bad tradeoff.

Stalwart Soul does needs to be either available at level 40, or some new PBAoE helps fill that void until you get Stalwart Soul Stalwart Soul becomes a stage 3 combo ender for the AoE combo.

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I think that having DRK be a combo based job wouldn't be as good as having it be resource based, as Lyth was saying. too many comboes leads to a rigid pattern like with PLD. Having DRK rely more on spending and building with oGCDs would be the way to keep it interesting and bring back that decision-making based HW gameplay, but then those spenders and builders would have to be powerful enough to make up for the lack of combos with bleeds/buffs.

Considering most bosses follow a script it would probably be best for just until the devs rework the game to where the bosses do not follow a script... or at least have the bosses be scripted to use abilities more frequently the lower their health gets...


Also considering there is a limit to how many posts everyone can have per day I'm trying to limit how many posts I can do without hitting that limit...

Originally Posted by Lyth

Bosses do follow scripts, but they can also follow branching ones.

I actually learned something new.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Blood price was an example of a resource generating action that had some variability attached.

Whether it was a successful idea or not is up for debate, though the Stormblood version felt bad to use in single target outside of specific scenarios, such as downtime or the beginning of a pull.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Someone probably could try to spreadsheet out every auto-attack in every single scenario, but that type of math nerd would probably fair much better on a rigid combo based job that follows strict rules.

I think I am actually one of those math nerds. lol

Originally Posted by Lyth

The more variable parameters that you add that have ever so slight changes on resource totals, the more you push things in favour of intuitive, flexible players who can adapt on the fly. And that's historically been DRK's real draw.

I'm only familiar with FF4 DRK and Heavensward/Stormblood DRK, and regrettably familiar Shadowbringers DRK... all I know is that I did not like how Syphon Strike was used as an MP dump in Stormblood when it didn't even have a Dark Arts effect attached to it... Power Slash eventually got buffed to where it was less bad to use but because of its Dark Arts effect I actually valued that more than Souleater combo... And Shadowbringer DRK might as well just be a parsing slave along with WAR...

Originally Posted by Lyth

My preferred approach for a two combo system would be to sit down and determine the equivalence between MP and Blood. You can use Edge/Flood at any point, and you can use Bloodspiller/Quietus at any point. What's the potency trade-off between these? Let's say that 1 blood = 200 MP when it comes to potency. Now you make two combos:
1: no resources
2: 2000 MP or A: 10 blood
3: 4000 MP or B: 20 blood

That is actually the basis of my burst combo idea for DRK, but because you would need MP AND Blood Gauge to get to the non-resource button(which for my idea is Carve and Spit for single target and Flood of Darkness for AoE) which is my Dark Arts rework idea comes in.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Now it doesn't really matter which combo you invest in too much, because both resource dumps are the same. Now for this system to really work, you need to have oGCDs which use resources as well, and ideally give you some of the opposite resource back. So let's say you wanted to use Carve and Spit which is about to come off cooldown, but it costs blood. Use the blood combo next, use Carve and Spit, and maybe use the MP that you get on TBN. Let's say Abyssal Drain is coming off cooldown, but costs MP. Your next combo step should be your MP combo, gain back some blood from Abyssal Drain, and then use Bloodspiller as follow-up. Your decision-making on combos depends on what oGCDs are coming off cooldown and what resource type you need to activate them.

Now if you really want to make things fun, instead of making an action like Delirium simply remove costs, have it increase your resource gains, so that you can Bloodspiller -> gain MP -> Abyssal Drain + Edge of Darkness -> gain blood -> Bloodspiller + Carve and Spit -> gain MP etc. to juggle your two resource meters back and forth. It's the same effect, but you get to use your noggin a bit.

If you're just learning how the job works then okay I can see my burst combo idea just being either a level 70 or 80 trait for what you're going for. Good for new players and veterans.... probably...

Originally Posted by Lyth

You can also do a resource gaining combo and a higher potency resource spending combo (which is essentially what the old Heavensward DASE vs. Delirium combos were), but that's slightly less interesting to me.

In Heavensward, Delirium combo was mostly used for DPS AND holding onto Dark Arts buff if needed it for Carve and Spit, Dark Passenger, Dark Mind, or Dark Dance(though in dungeons you would use Dark Arts with Dark Dance first, followed by another Dark Arts with Dark Passenger which i want Dark Passenger to come for the old evasion tanking trick), whereas the GCD portion of the decision making was used for either more enmity for Power Slash, or just a MP dump through Souleater(and if you were main tank and had Grit on more HP recovery on top of the slight DPS gain) and Souleater
MP dumping was probably the source of the Dark Arts spam in going into Stormblood...

Current DRK have no interplay mechanics and everything it's ultramega concentrated and since we can't take back the parry mechanics to get free low blows and reprisals with the properly spread use of his MP across the rotation it use to have in HW we have to fill the rotation with something else and no more non-MP oGCD with a CD that just end being compressed too.

Current MP economy and design of Edge/Floor is a bigger problem since the only way to operate it properly is load and shoot at contrary that the HW economy and skills where you spread it all over the rotation and have to pay attention to your MP bar, so the only answer is increase the MP economy and put real management and limitations on those 2 skills so we have a constant use of oGCD across the rotation, considering how they design Darkside gauge it would make it usefull under that situation with the proper ajustments and make it something you want to manage and not ignore and HW generate more MP and flow, current one is MP starving.

Apart increasing the resource generation is not bad or a problem as long as you don't go crazy woth that and I suggested in my main threat increase the amount of resources and reduce the cost.

For me the present iteration of Delirium is awful, not only hurt DRK gameplay identity it's badly designed and offers nothing to the job gameplay wise, SB Delirium was mile better bcs offer complexity and a strong identity, wanna make it have more impact? Remove the cost don't make it inner release, but what hurt me more is the insane obsession of making everything have a burst, burst here burst there, put a burst in your life be a TA slave all bcs a external website make you thing if you don't have a burst you job it's trash somehow, still make the effort to make it unique and not a copy pasta that it's present on another 3 jobs 2 of them in the same role, don't add more jobs if you arent gonna develop your current ones properly, beside living shadow is on the 120s mark, perfect for almost every single raid buff of the game and hold the buff window, I'm tired of having every job being mold for NIN needs and the only answer is become a WAR.