The toxicity starting to happen.

[Melichoir]

Yes, sensible people can. You're basically saying 'vets have an excuse for treating people like trash, so treating them like trash is not treating them like trash'. Having a 'good reason' to be elitist towards others does not change that you're being elitist towards them. That's almost textbook elitism right there 'I consider myself better, so I will consider everyone else to be trash'.

This typically isnt the mindset of a lot of raiders. There is a fundamental difference in understanding you are better or more skilled at something and that those who dont meet your standard are trash. This doesnt mean that there arent high end players who have the view that anyone beneath them in skill is trash, but rather that this typically isn't the default mind set of most high end players.

Do you think there's not a reason casual players get testy when useless 'constructive criticism' is leveled at them by people they've spent all of ten minutes playing with, who make it clear as you have they consider said players to be trash? That years of people calling them trash, going on rants and then abusing votekick functions hasn't similarly worn out their tolerance for self styled elitists who nonetheless need to pug their runs?

You can spin your point in the other direction too. Is there not a reason expert players get testy and call less skilled players trash? I dont know how much of EX or Savage you do, but it is frustrating to go into a duty complete and have people continuously wipe to mechanics in first phase that they should be more than familiar with. Even outside of high end content, seeing someone whos llv 80 wearing 490 gear fail to keep a tank alive on a standard pull, or who eats every single aoe a dungeon boss puts out. Even fights that are pretty damn old with basic mechanics I see people struggle with when they have multiple 80s, and are decently geared. It is frustrating, and double so when asked to step up their level of play to a basic level of competency to get it thrown back in their faces.

Now to be fair, this isnt most interactions, but it happens a bit frequently especially in PF for learing EX and Savage content. I understand not knowing a fight if youve maybe cleared it a few times or are joining a learning party. But weekly reclears where people struggle to do Ramuh and are wearing iLvL 500 gear...come on.

And some of this isnt the players fault. Its been my belief for a little while that the devs are partially to blame. They keep dropping the skill floor instead of holding players feet to the fire a little bit and forcing htem to build up the necessary basic skills to function in end game content without causing a lot of issues. Though if Im going to be even more blunt, if youve been called trash by random people in DF and PF for years, maybe its not other people. Maybe its you and you should step up your game a bit. It's strange that people think that learning to optimize your class and play somehow makes you an elitist. Very rarely are people telling people in casual content to be raid strats max uptime dps hardcore mode. It's a lot more of "Hey, can you use AoEs?"

For every good top end player with actual good advice willing to help others, there's a hundred 'elitists' who just want to abuse their power/knowledge and bash other players, who do things like -

[anecdote here]

- and you're even using that as an excuse, that you ran into a bunch of elitists looking to deliberately ruin someone's day using one of those typical elitist excuses 'undergeared' 'poor parses' 'does not have the achievement', etc... and you wonder why people who encounter that from elitists constantly are no less annoyed by elitists than you are?

Ive had dungeons runs where someone tried to vote kick me because I had the to suggest people do the boss mechanics properly so we could get through the fight. Ive had FC mates who had hit enrage on bismarck. Not EX, regular. This wasnt just a bunch of sprouts who didnt know the fight. This was people in Ilvl 390 gear (as this was in SB at the time) gear. Ive had trial runs where that literal "you dont pay my sub" nonsense was thrown at fellow players because someone kept messing up and making it harder to get things done.

Behaving that toxicity is just a one way street, that it's just coming from 'elitists' is disingenuous. There are a ton of entitled new players who feel they dont have to play by the rules, play nice, or try to put in effort but expect the same rewards as those who do. And bear in mind, Im still saying that among both veterans and sprouts, the occurrence of elitism or just plain being a jerk is a fairly rare occurrence. But it does occur, and it occurs from both directions at about the same rates. I happen to disagree with your implied perspective, that it is predominately a 'elite' point of view.

Which is why when vets do post it's to be toxic and whinge about casuals, a group that basically doesn't frequent these forums in the first place.

Most of the vets I tend to see voice their frustrations but with nuance. They want a better class of casuals so that they have a bigger base to play with and more interesting fights to have. Most people have not and will not suggest that "Everyone should be able to do Ultimates by Level 80." Most people have nuanced view and fully understand there will be different levels of play. Which is fine. On occassion you might get the ass who says "If you dont do good on Shiva EX, youre trashtier and should quit the game", but that isnt the majority of opinions. It's been broadly "Look, improve your abilities and reap the benefit of that, but dont demand to make the game easier cause you cant be bothered to invest in improving yourself."

I have no doubt you have experienced plenty of toxic players- because all the casual players you're calling trash have too. But people are not as dumb as you think- and if vets are really approaching novices and casuals with the attitude that they are trash, it's abundantly clear, and of course if you treat someone like trash they're going to react like they've just been treated like trash.

Again, flip the position - have a casual go into content and put low effort and expect to be carried and yell at a vet when they offer up well meaning advice. Toxicity cuts both ways. You cant sit here claiming the vets are all elites and Casuals be innocent of any wrong doing. There are plenty of instances where a casual player explodes on a vet for simply suggesting basic things, like using AOE on a pack mob. Hell asking if a player used a jump potion so you can adjust how tanking is handled is toxic and wrong.

People on both sides have been wrong. It's not an elite vs casual issue, its an issue of jerk vs jerk, and trying to quantify which sides has more so the other side can be free to be belligerent is foolish.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

-snip-

What different view? The widespread hatred of casual players is not the different view on these forums it is the norm, with thread after thread giving excuses for why it is acceptable to treat a portion of the playerbase like trash, and why it is not toxic to do so. I read his entire post; referring to players as trash, entitled snots, buffoons, etc... is not something I am going to pretend is not a toxic, elitist point of view. I notice you completely ignored that part in your own post, because you want to act like I called someone out on a toxic mindset with absolutely nothing to back it up, and that becomes easier for you to do if there was nothing to back it up.

'Manipulate' his words? I believe you are the one doing some selective reading here.

I am not the one that made him refer to players as buffoons, trash on numerous occasions, entitled snots, idiots and whingers, there is no manipulation on my part those are the sorts of things he uses to describe human beings playing the game- that is how he, a vet, says vets look at other players- if you want to talk about belittling and talking down to others. You might think that is an acceptable attitude to take towards casual players, as many vets indeed do take it and it shows in abundance, but the way you just brushed that off in your attempt to minimize what I posted is pretty much the crux of the issue.

Players genuinely seem to think that everything casuals do is toxic, while finding so many excuses to brush off toxic behaviour on the elitist end as perfectly fine. I think no better example of it was with the latest streamer to be suspended, with multiple examples of video evidence of him swearing, using slurs and directing his followers by name to harass specific players. Instead of discussing his toxic behaviour and why it was not right, people went to bat for him- explaining how it was 'constructive criticism' to call someone a r#$$$% and then tell his followers to target the guy. And that sort of thing becomes acceptable- because when he was suspended, his followers did just that, taking to harass people who they thought reported him because he had blasted these people by name on his stream, to the point where on reddit multiple people were harassed so much they started posting there to let people know they weren't the ones who reported the guy in the hopes that his followers, who he'd asked to harass people in the past, would stop harassing them.


Casual players are so used to this treatment, of this harassment- whether misplaced or not casual players have come to expect elitists to treat them like trash, because as Ramesses said many vets consider them to be trash. I get exactly what he is saying, that he has encountered a lot of toxic behaviour from a part of the playerbase so vets tend to shut off to them. But that's the same with casuals- they're so used to being attacked by elitists while playing the game that they'll shut off to their advice, with stuff like 'you don't pay my sub'. It's like vets don't consider casuals human, that they understand the reasons for vets shutting off from casuals, but can't possibly understand that casuals have actually very similar reasons for shutting off from elitists.

Now, nobody is stopping Ramesses from having his discussion despite you thinking somehow that I've stopped it, I hardly have the power to stop people from posting about how negatively they view the bulk of the playerbase if I did this forum would lose a lot of its own bulk, and I have never used the reporting function on these forums as I don't believe in silencing people. I also have not pointed out anything unfair despite what you're saying- if someone is going to complain that the people here are entitled, idiotic trash making posts on the forums that are negative, complaining rants without solid critical suggestions, while doing so in a negative, complaining rant without a solid critical suggestion for how to improve things- I am not going to pretend that is not a negative, complaining rant full of insults.

There is nothing wrong with him, or yourself, being critical of casuals, forums posters, or whomever else- but there seems to be this lack of realization from a lot of players here that if you are critical of something you needed to be prepared for others to turn their critical eye in your direction too. If you are going to say that other players are toxic, while also calling them trash among other toxic things- then I don't think it is unfair to be called out for doing so.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I am the problem he is talking about. Because I have pointed out what he said, and criticized it? If being critical of what others say on these forums is a 'problem', then sure, I guess I am a problem because I will be critical, and worse I will be critical of vets and elitists, players who seem to believe themselves to be exempt from any form of criticism.

Now, if you have something specific you disagree with in my post that you would like to discuss, perhaps start there. I was specific when I responded to him and I have no issues with discussing it further, but without being specific with what you consider to be unfair in what I said I cannot really discuss what you think the problem to be.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

You can spin your point in the other direction too. Is there not a reason expert players get testy and call less skilled players trash? I dont know how much of EX or Savage you do, but it is frustrating to go into a duty complete and have people continuously wipe to mechanics in first phase that they should be more than familiar with. Even outside of high end content, seeing someone whos llv 80 wearing 490 gear fail to keep a tank alive on a standard pull, or who eats every single aoe a dungeon boss puts out. Even fights that are pretty damn old with basic mechanics I see people struggle with when they have multiple 80s, and are decently geared. It is frustrating, and double so when asked to step up their level of play to a basic level of competency to get it thrown back in their faces.

I do not do EX or Savage at this point, I've been raiding for years in WoW and am burnt out on the systemic toxicity that seems unavoidable in the upper echelons, and I'm so used to hearing it being excused because 'we are better at the game', as if that's a genuine reason for mistreating other people.

Now, I do understand the frustration full well of entering content with players who are messing things up, whether in mythic raiding or LFR, I have been on the high skill end in WoW looking down, and am now on the new end (despite what my profile says I basically didn't play until ShB was announced and only recently hit 80) in FFXIV. There's a fair number of fights I've seen once or twice and don't know inside and out, and with no add ons or in game guides to read up on a boss fight right before like in WoW I can admit I've called my phoenix many times only for the boss to enter an immune stage, and I'm quite aware of how much that'll tank my damage.

And some of this isnt the players fault. Its been my belief for a little while that the devs are partially to blame. They keep dropping the skill floor instead of holding players feet to the fire a little bit and forcing htem to build up the necessary basic skills to function in end game content without causing a lot of issues. Though if Im going to be even more blunt, if youve been called trash by random people in DF and PF for years, maybe its not other people. Maybe its you and you should step up your game a bit. It's strange that people think that learning to optimize your class and play somehow makes you an elitist. Very rarely are people telling people in casual content to be raid strats max uptime dps hardcore mode. It's a lot more of "Hey, can you use AoEs?"

Personally, in this game no, I have experienced only a few examples of toxicity from either end, and not towards me but between other party members, though I am not keen on entering the savage/EX group with how the forums seem to accept toxicity towards novice players. I find the guides on SMN a bit daunting when people give it a two minute rotation when it is mixed with mechanic/movement heavy fights that seem designed to make such a rotation guaranteed to break up. And both mechanics and the rotation are things that I've found difficult to practice while just leveling up, since outside of mandatory dungeons there's really no possible way to even get a normal rotation going.

Learning to optimize your play is not really the topic that is concerning- I don't consider a player being the best they possibly can be toxic the same way I don't consider someone lacking skills, not following a guide or just having a low skill ceiling to be toxic. Skill and attitude are different things. And I can realize that there are players who will spit on good advice- but I also realize that many casual players are defensive about advice because most of the advice they've received from elitists has been hostile and very little of it tends to be good. From what I've seen in WoW, there's an abundance of players willing to call everyone else trash, that wait for the first snag in a dungeon and target the third player on the dps meter for humiliation.

Ive had dungeons runs where someone tried to vote kick me because I had the to suggest people do the boss mechanics properly so we could get through the fight. Ive had FC mates who had hit enrage on bismarck. Not EX, regular. This wasnt just a bunch of sprouts who didnt know the fight. This was people in Ilvl 390 gear (as this was in SB at the time) gear. Ive had trial runs where that literal "you dont pay my sub" nonsense was thrown at fellow players because someone kept messing up and making it harder to get things done.

Behaving that toxicity is just a one way street, that it's just coming from 'elitists' is disingenuous. There are a ton of entitled new players who feel they dont have to play by the rules, play nice, or try to put in effort but expect the same rewards as those who do. And bear in mind, Im still saying that among both veterans and sprouts, the occurrence of elitism or just plain being a jerk is a fairly rare occurrence. But it does occur, and it occurs from both directions at about the same rates. I happen to disagree with your implied perspective, that it is predominately a 'elite' point of view.

I've seen plenty of wipes in raids while leveling, on stuff as easy as WoD to more mechanically heavy Alexander or Ivalice bosses- I've seen plenty of people list what the raid is supposed to do, whether with a macro or just line by line. I have not yet seen anyone get blasted for explaining how to do the mechanics of a fight though- I am not saying that it never happens, I am fully aware of how toxic some players can be. I also do not think that it is just elitists that are toxic, I've sat through enough LFR to know that's absolutely not the case- just that on these forums where casuals are sparse the consensus seems to be not so much that casuals are toxic and elitists are not- but that casuals even who aren't toxic should be treated as such if they're simply not great at the game, and elitists should get a pass on toxicity because being good at the game is a good reason for being toxic.

There's toxicity on both ends- but I seem to be criticized every time I point out that being a vet is not a free pass for toxicity.

Most of the vets I tend to see voice their frustrations but with nuance. They want a better class of casuals so that they have a bigger base to play with and more interesting fights to have. Most people have not and will not suggest that "Everyone should be able to do Ultimates by Level 80." Most people have nuanced view and fully understand there will be different levels of play. Which is fine. On occassion you might get the ass who says "If you dont do good on Shiva EX, youre trashtier and should quit the game", but that isnt the majority of opinions. It's been broadly "Look, improve your abilities and reap the benefit of that, but dont demand to make the game easier cause you cant be bothered to invest in improving yourself."

And a better class of talented casuals would be great for everyone, but it is a hard thing to do with casuals being... well, casual, disorganized, goalless and really just a random cluster of players. And I want to never be stuck in a game where toxicity is normalized like it is in WoW, so I can admit I'm very sensitive to when people try to excuse looking at other players as trash, because that mindset is the best way to ensure a game where toxicity is normal- and that is not going to have the positive effect that players seem to think. WoW, which is almost nothing but toxicity from casuals and elitists alike, has not gained better players out of it- LFR will have frequent wipes despite almost every fight being mechanically far more simple (not to mention having DBM tell you what to do and when to do it) than low tier dungeon bosses here.

Again, flip the position - have a casual go into content and put low effort and expect to be carried and yell at a vet when they offer up well meaning advice. Toxicity cuts both ways. You cant sit here claiming the vets are all elites and Casuals be innocent of any wrong doing. There are plenty of instances where a casual player explodes on a vet for simply suggesting basic things, like using AOE on a pack mob. Hell asking if a player used a jump potion so you can adjust how tanking is handled is toxic and wrong.

People on both sides have been wrong. It's not an elite vs casual issue, its an issue of jerk vs jerk, and trying to quantify which sides has more so the other side can be free to be belligerent is foolish.

I don't, and I won't- someone treating someone else like trash is toxic behaviour. Someone viewing other players as trash is a toxic mindset. Regardless of being elitist, casual, or whatever else. I definitely think that if you're a raiding FC, or making high end premades you're going to have expectations and there's a difference between someone making mistakes and someone not trying at all. But I also think an FC or recurring premade group also has a lot more connection and similar goals that welcomes meaningful feedback compared to a random normal pug, and tearing into a new tank because they haven't pulled wall to wall adds their first time in- something that there's an entire thread talking about how a tank that does not do mass pulls is 'toxic'.

I won't claim that vets are all elitist, but I have yet to hear a good reason as to why I would view a vet who considers non-vets to be trash, as not a toxic player. I think if you're asking someone to use their aoe abilities for aoe packs and they are toxic towards you, they are being toxic. But, if someone is going to make a post where they express that they and many other vets view a large chunk of the playerbase as idiots, trash, entitled snots, etc... I don't believe I am incorrect in saying that they are being toxic and displaying a toxic mindset.

Anyone can of course disagree- but it seems that is a case of a vet saying that there's so many casuals who are toxic it gives vets an excuse to be free to be belligerent.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

A lot of this is role stereotyping. Especially in the case of Tank shenanigans, where the general consensus is 'go big or go home.' I think there's actually a lot less direct toxicity due to the new rules in place but a huge surge in passive toxicity, like rage quitting, kicking, afk, and emote/macro spamming. There was even one story in the Duty Finder thread where a healer was just sitting down during a dungeon instance because the tank would not play to their satisfaction. They still healed but its that kind of crap I see more than actual spoken toxicity nowadays.

The short of it is, people are selfish. They take what they want from the game, whatever aspect that does it for them, and care little about anything outside of that. And since we hide behind our sprites and play with a large group of others, a lot of times we use that as a shield for shitty behavior. Its the same in pretty much all MMO games, including this one.

I guess the moral of the post is to just...chill out? Terrible play is not going away and certainly not by being toxic about it. Either give advice or flex that veteran muscle and get through it anyway because you're just that good. Because lets face it, if everyone played optimized this would be the most boring game ever lol.

[Melichoir]

I do not do EX or Savage at this point, I've been raiding for years in WoW and am burnt out on the systemic toxicity that seems unavoidable in the upper echelons, and I'm so used to hearing it being excused because 'we are better at the game', as if that's a genuine reason for mistreating other people.

So you have little to no experience in the raid scene but deem if fit to declare that a majority of that scene are elitist because of your experience in another game? What? Maybe Im misunderstanding you but thats how Im understanding what you just said.

Now, I do understand the frustration full well of entering content with players who are messing things up, whether in mythic raiding or LFR, I have been on the high skill end in WoW looking down, and am now on the new end (despite what my profile says I basically didn't play until ShB was announced and only recently hit 80) in FFXIV. There's a fair number of fights I've seen once or twice and don't know inside and out, and with no add ons or in game guides to read up on a boss fight right before like in WoW I can admit I've called my phoenix many times only for the boss to enter an immune stage, and I'm quite aware of how much that'll tank my damage.

Personally, in this game no, I have experienced only a few examples of toxicity from either end, and not towards me but between other party members, though I am not keen on entering the savage/EX group with how the forums seem to accept toxicity towards novice players. I find the guides on SMN a bit daunting when people give it a two minute rotation when it is mixed with mechanic/movement heavy fights that seem designed to make such a rotation guaranteed to break up. And both mechanics and the rotation are things that I've found difficult to practice while just leveling up, since outside of mandatory dungeons there's really no possible way to even get a normal rotation going.

Learning to optimize your play is not really the topic that is concerning- I don't consider a player being the best they possibly can be toxic the same way I don't consider someone lacking skills, not following a guide or just having a low skill ceiling to be toxic. Skill and attitude are different things. And I can realize that there are players who will spit on good advice- but I also realize that many casual players are defensive about advice because most of the advice they've received from elitists has been hostile and very little of it tends to be good. From what I've seen in WoW, there's an abundance of players willing to call everyone else trash, that wait for the first snag in a dungeon and target the third player on the dps meter for humiliation.

Again, it seems you are making judgement calls based on your experience in other games. And I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be the best, or people playing at the their best and it isnt 'raid' material. However, it is worth noting that there is a severe distinction with trying to improve and struggling to do so, and refusing to improve cause "you dont pay my sub" mentality. Look at some of the arguments put forward by some casual players in this thread and others like it. Arguments that "Oh the dungeon allows for 90 minutes, therefore its ok to take 90 minutes." or "Im a healer, my job is to heal, not dps." or "I only should pull one pack at a time (despite being level 80 in good gear) cause more than one pack is excessive and toxic." These mindsets are just as bad as the "I cleared e8s, so I know whats up and you dont, you PoS noob. Lol gtfo pleb".

There will always be elitists who like talking down to others when they complete content cause its a power trip. Much like there will be casual players who will make and find excuses to invest as little as possible and demand others cater to their lack of ability. But if the point youre trying to make is "Well, these casuals are 'you dont pay my sub' cause of elitists" then the same argument can be inverted where elitist players call casuals trash cause theyve encountered so many casuals that make excuses for crap play. This kind of toxicity inst a one way street - it happens on both ends equally. And frankly the solution to the problem isnt dropping the skill floor more, its actually pushing it up a bit and expecting players to rise to the challenge. But I digress, as thats another topic entirely.

I've seen plenty of wipes in raids while leveling, on stuff as easy as WoD to more mechanically heavy Alexander or Ivalice bosses- I've seen plenty of people list what the raid is supposed to do, whether with a macro or just line by line. I have not yet seen anyone get blasted for explaining how to do the mechanics of a fight though- I am not saying that it never happens, I am fully aware of how toxic some players can be. I also do not think that it is just elitists that are toxic, I've sat through enough LFR to know that's absolutely not the case- just that on these forums where casuals are sparse the consensus seems to be not so much that casuals are toxic and elitists are not- but that casuals even who aren't toxic should be treated as such if they're simply not great at the game, and elitists should get a pass on toxicity because being good at the game is a good reason for being toxic.

There's toxicity on both ends- but I seem to be criticized every time I point out that being a vet is not a free pass for toxicity.

We seem to more or less agree it seems, but I think its an issue of defining terms. If were talking about elitist meaning people who raid savage and EX, and said elitists are ok to be toxic, I disagree. That attitude is generally not accepted nor given a pass. Sure some people agree, but thats true of any opinion youll see here. If your using elitist to refer to high tier raiders who are toxic, and not most or all high end raiders, then elitist becomes the equivalent of 'trash casuals'. Most people understand when they say casual, they mean players who arent interested in Savage or EX, per se. Players who have other objectives and likely do not have much interest in BiS, or optimal rotations, or etc. That's fine to have those interests and what not, but it should still be expected that they meet a decent standard of play. Thankfully, most casual players do (though I feel it could be better). Casuals who dont even meet basic play ability and give stink eye to being given tips by more veteran players are just as toxic (and prevalent - or maybe lack of prevalence) as the 'elitist' raider who talks smack about anyone who hasn't seen enrage in TEA or something.

Mind you, it is not like I havent seen end raiders refer to others as trash before. However, there is typically some context to their use. As an example, Ive had people I play with refer to a specific player as being 'trash tier', but not because said player was a casual or didnt know the game or was struggling to get better. It was because said player was being an ass, demeaning the group, demanding better performance, when they were the one wiping the group by screwing up mechanics. If youre in a learning party and figuring stuff out, thats one thing, but Ive seen on occasion players in weekly reclears who, again, continuously mess up mechanics they should be familiar with. What makes it next level frustrating is when those players berate others and tell others to 'step up their game'. Those are your toxic elitists typically. Theyre also usually the people who throw up a PF and say some nonsense like "2 deaths = kick from party, dont waste my time.". From my personal experience, people who put that in their PF are typically people die a ton and blame it on others.

The reason people push back on the "pull one at a time" is the reasoning given by some is bull. "Oh Im super concerned with my party and its rude to pull more than one!" Did you check your parties gear, or ask their experience, or anything? No? Then thats on you. Or the "Im new to tank" as theyre level 80 with 490 gear. New? Right, no. Or as mentioned above "Well SE gives you 90 minutes so theres no need to pull wall to wall. All you do is kill everyone for sure!" All these reasons are BS. If your party is capable of healing you and doing appropriate DPS, and you have the level and gear, there is no reason for you to pull one at a time. If youre a sprout, or new to tanking, or lacking gear cause whatever reasons, or the party may struggle a bit to pull, etc, sure. I get that. Pull what you can, but you discuss that with your party and figure that out. But the reasons aforementioned are treated as hardline reasons. That "the appropriate way to tank a dungeon is one pack at a time, and if you wall to wall, youre the toxic elitist."

[Juicymama]

honestly the wall to wall issue is solved so easily, just macro the line "Want wall to wall or play safe? No respond in 5 means w2w" and run that when the dung loads in and see if anyone respond.

I do that when I queue as tank and never had any issue regarding to any pull style the party op for.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

So you have little to no experience in the raid scene but deem if fit to declare that a majority of that scene are elitist because of your experience in another game? What? Maybe Im misunderstanding you but thats how Im understanding what you just said.

In game, on these forums, through what I've seen of streamers- as well as taking from experience with a far more toxic community where I've pushed servers firsts and speed runs- and a desire to not see this game become anything like WoW. When I see a post where someone is referring to most of the community as trash and people are just fine with that I consider it a red flag- one does not need to raid to see the multiple examples of elitist toxicity in this game since people are happy to make such toxicity public domain, which is another red flag- when open toxicity is acceptable. I'll point again to the streamer who was suspended while there's vids of him calling people r#%%%@ and telling his followers to harass someone by name. Not concerning if he gets slammed by the community for it, but when the community not only rallies around him but goes so far as to stalk and harass people who 'might' have reported him, I don't feel like it's an unusual conclusion to consider it to be a widespread thing. It's a good thing that the toxicity that is seemingly embraced in some areas is not a common factor in game- but it easily could be, and the more acceptable it becomes the more likely it will be.

And it's kind of offputting for casuals or novices who DO want to improve and get better when they see that the high end community supports what really just looks like mean spirited hazing on public forums/streams of anyone who dares to try to join their ranks.

There will always be elitists who like talking down to others when they complete content cause its a power trip. Much like there will be casual players who will make and find excuses to invest as little as possible and demand others cater to their lack of ability. But if the point youre trying to make is "Well, these casuals are 'you dont pay my sub' cause of elitists" then the same argument can be inverted where elitist players call casuals trash cause theyve encountered so many casuals that make excuses for crap play. This kind of toxicity inst a one way street - it happens on both ends equally. And frankly the solution to the problem isnt dropping the skill floor more, its actually pushing it up a bit and expecting players to rise to the challenge. But I digress, as thats another topic entirely.

While I agree that raising the skill floor is always going to be the best option especially for high end content, but not all content in the game is high end content- and I've seen far more groups wipe because the tank pulled everything up to a boss and either they or the healer couldn't handle it, than I have the world end because it took twenty minutes to do a pug instead of fifteen. I don't think there's actually many players who want a dungeon run to go slower- but there are definitely some who think if they pull five packs of mobs they'll cause a wipe, and knowing your limitations is part of being a good player. And maybe that player will realize they can do more and next time will try, emboldened by what they managed last time- but the player who does pull the entire first part of a dungeon, wipes, and then gets chewed out because the same person who was waiting to trash them for not pulling everything is just as eager to trash them for pulling everything- is going to be less inclined to cause a wipe by pulling too much again.

We seem to more or less agree it seems, but I think its an issue of defining terms. If were talking about elitist meaning people who raid savage and EX, and said elitists are ok to be toxic, I disagree. That attitude is generally not accepted nor given a pass. Sure some people agree, but thats true of any opinion youll see here. If your using elitist to refer to high tier raiders who are toxic, and not most or all high end raiders, then elitist becomes the equivalent of 'trash casuals'. Most people understand when they say casual, they mean players who arent interested in Savage or EX, per se. Players who have other objectives and likely do not have much interest in BiS, or optimal rotations, or etc. That's fine to have those interests and what not, but it should still be expected that they meet a decent standard of play. Thankfully, most casual players do (though I feel it could be better). Casuals who dont even meet basic play ability and give stink eye to being given tips by more veteran players are just as toxic (and prevalent - or maybe lack of prevalence) as the 'elitist' raider who talks smack about anyone who hasn't seen enrage in TEA or something.

I don't consider someone who raids the top end stuff to be an elitist- what I view as elitism at least also includes a mindset of looking down on others, of viewing them like trash and often treating them the same way. So no, someone who clears savage is not an elitist- someone who dumps on people who make mistakes, don't 90+ parse and mocks randoms who can't play at their level however is an elitist. Someone who helps their FC mates to improve and learn mechanics/their job isn't elitist, someone who tells someone they suck at the game during a random pug where they've known the person all of ten minutes and don't care at all whether that person improves because they'll never meet again is probably an elitist. Elitists also tend to forget their own period of being new, making mistakes, not knowing the mechanics of a fight- a fight that you've done fifty times is still new to someone who has done it 0 times.

[LaughingBanana]

Your response to them expressing their views on the history and development of toxicity, from their perspective, was:

Assume meaning and intention to passages in which we, as the readers, cannot fully confirm in order to fit a (very clear) narrative.
Call him an elitist throughout, with a clear negative connotation.
Selectively read certain passages in order to fit your narrative.
Take passages out of context in order to further push your narrative.
Assigned a certain personality and mindset to him when it's clear that it isn't present.

Never have I seen someone so completely prove the general statement of a post they are against. Bravo on being the problem that Ramesses was referencing throughout. When criticism and a different view came to pass, you attacked him. You just reinforced his entire post. Established that his view is entirely valid and with merit.

Outstanding work. I'm going to leave this specific post up. You see, I regularly delete my posts because some individuals on this forum found my in game house and left some choice words in my guest book. Thus the alt as well. But this one? It's staying because maybe you'll gain a bit of self-awareness out of it.

Edit: I re-read the post, your post, and the posts in between to make sure that take was accurate. It was, but further, I want to point something out to you: Sabrenn had a very good counterpoint. Had you done NOTHING, that would of been a good discussion chain to go off of that would of supported your "view." But no. You decided to attack someone with a different view. Not only did that kill any discussion merit that the chain was going to have, you actively proved the entire point of the post Ramesses made.

All because you could not help but try to talk down to, belittle, and manipulate the words of someone whos take on a situation, based on their personal experiences, was different than your own. Sound familiar? Rhetorical question.

His mindset is clear when he said it himself that when a player was apologizing to what happened to him because of another player--a very thoughtful and humane thing to do--his thoughts were for that player to sod off. It is as if he rejected the notion that amidst all this group of players he dislike, there is actually people that can act like a decent human being, and instead of acknowledging that, he'd rather continue to think them all as toxic trash trying to destroy what he loves. Confirmation bias and all that jazz.

For me, it is something that is obvious and crystal clear, and I wonder myself how you could have possibly missed that.

[SavishSalacious]

Since I last posted, the conversation seems to have evolved into elitism around disability, laziness, casual players and the dislike of.

Lots of people agree by now that there is a level of toxicity happening in this game, THIS IS NOT NEW, and I don’t want anyone to think, that I think, this is new. I know this game is growing and will continue too. I am afraid of the forums and the community going from helpful and caring and kind to WOW,

I mean no Offence to you wow players but have you seen your forums? Your own community? Christ it’s toxic and I fear that this community, this game will go that route, the GW2 community elitism route.

People seem less interested in either helping because they are afraid of being yelled at and bullied, or to ask for help because they might get attacked. I run roulettes these days with nothing but sprigs and maybe 1/10 will either ask for help or accept help where as before it was 6/10 and every one wanted to help.

Things change, times change and communities evolve. I found a guy in my FC who spent hours with me the other day, helping me understand how to do rotations to get HQ collectables for crafting. He bought me gear, we voice chatted and he walked me through not just what the skills do, BUT WHAT ORDER IS BEST OPTIMIZED TO PRESS THEM IN given the circumstances.

HE SPENT HOURS and GIL to help me. On two of my classes.


NO ONE DOES THIS ANY MORE. No one helps each other. No one takes time to help people. You want a damn Gil sink, help a newbie level to eighty in a class.

Christ what’s wrong with this community. I learned so much and more and feel more accomplished as a crafter and gatherer.

[Black_Wing]

The toxic player left the group, I see no problem here. Run enough dungeons you will run into divas.