Garlemald and Azys Lla

[LineageRazor]

As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity.

No, the MSQ makes it very clear that the war was Nidhogg's to win at any time he pleased. The war lasted for a thousand years, because Nidhogg wished to torture them for as long as possible before finishing them off. While the Holy See DID use the war as a means to secure their legitimacy, the danger and desperation was very real The See was not doing anything to prolong the war for their own benefit, and there's nothing beyond player speculation to indicate that they had.

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

If you expand TIME, don't forget to expand DISTANCE, as well. Everything in the game is scaled down for player convenience. Azys Lla, by the same token, is enormous; while Thordan may have had days upon reaching Azys Lla, it very likely took him days just to get up to the Flagship, bypass the Allagan defenses, and access the Singularity Reactor. He didn't have time to sightsee. It's quite unlikely that he knew that Tiamat was there, so unless the Ascians told him about her, he would not have known. (And that's assuming that even the Ascians know about her - they are not omniscient, and it's unlikely that they kept track of each and every atrocity the Allagans committed.)

Additionally, there's a lot more we don't know about dragon eyes than that we do. We know they can be used as a power source. We don't know how EASY it is to use them as a power source. We don't know whether using one dragon's eyes is exactly the same as using another. A thousand years of using Nidhogg's does not mean he wouldn't be starting from square one while using Tiamat's. And that's even assuming Thordan knows how to use the Eyes he has! Use of the Eye of Nidhogg has been the duty of the Azure Dragoons since pretty much day one, and it's unlikely that Thordan has gone through Azure Dragoon training. The Asicans might be the only reason his plan was workable at all. They could probably have instructed Thordan in the use of Tiamat's eyes, as well, but because they did not encourage him to acquire them we can assume they either didn't know about her or felt it would have been time not well spent (whether this is due to typical Ascian overconfidence, or because it really WOULD have been a poor use of time is irrelevant).

I could go on; there's all kinds of potential reasons Thordan did not kill Tiamat, but, the bottom line is that we're once again at a situation similar to that of the "why not just" thread we had a couple weeks ago regarding dealing with the Light Aether the WoL was overcharged by. Players are imaginative. The writers cannot possibly anticipate every idea the players could possibly come up with - and even if they could, few would have the patience to wade through the walls o' text that would be necessary to cover every possible contingency. There comes a point where you have to accept that your clever idea isn't as obvious as you think it is (this is the first time I've seen it brought up, so it's not as though the majority of the playerbase has been scratching their heads thinking about it since Heavensward) - the writers either didn't think of it, or they have inside knowledge that would preclude it but felt that would be too clunky to write into the script, or it's perfectly VALID, but the writers still felt it would be too clunky to work into the script.

And, as imaginitve as you are, the others on this forum are just as imaginitive, and will be able to come up with counters that explain away the idea. And you will imaginatively come up with counter-counterarguments, and things will continue to go back and forth until folks get tired of debating.

Back in the days when I read Marvel Comics, there were often a section where letters from fans would be printed. Occasionally, letters exposing a continuity error would be printed as well - but the editors had a rule about those. If you wanted to see your mail printed, you not only had to talk about the error, but ALSO supply an EXPLANATION that solved it. (Doing so would also award you the prestigious "No-Prize" award - accept no substitutes!) I always saw this as a brilliant move. It's not hard to poke holes in a narrative - it's REALLY not hard at all. For even the most talented of writers, there's likely a reader out there who's even smarter. There's always a bigger fish, after all!

Narratives cannot be expected to be bulletproof; the best you can hope for is that what holes are there are not glaringly obvious holes. The "butcher Tiamat" hole is not one such hole.

[Vyrerus]

Bulletproof Monk

No, the MSQ makes it very clear that Nidhogg wasn't waging a war of destruction, but a war of suffering. He never had the advantage beyond the sheer number of dragons answering his call. Each Arch Bishop perpetuated a lie about his very origins in order to prolong High House authority and papal rule. Without the Dragonsong War raging, they felt their rule unjustified and that they would not be able to conrol the populace. I don't doubt the dragon hordes could have razed Ishgard to the ground, but the papacy could have kill Nidhogg at any time by brandishing the second eye. The very ancestors of the High Houses that we see could have done it themselves, along with Haldrath, once Nidhogg received Hraesvelgr's eye. They chose not to, again, in order to perpetuate their rule and cover up their besmirched honor.

If we expand time and distance, then it expands for the WoL too, and since it is a longer distance at a slower rate of travel until Midgardsormr grants you his wings, then that leaves the WoL even further behind, granting Thordan VII even more leeway to go kill Tiamat. Also, he did not have to bypass the defenses. The key gained from Bismarck that reactivated Azys Lla and made it descend, the same key that allowed the Soleil through the forcefield gave him administrator level access. Thordan VII and the Heavens Ward really got to come and go as they pleased due to that. The only thing up in the air is the particulars of the alternate path they used to go to the Singularity Reactor, where they docked the Soleil, and why they hadn't already enacted their plan.

As for using the Eye, well it's so easy a cave man could do it. It seems to be as simple as holding it up and channeling the aether within it. Estinien does this for the Aetheric Ram. The WoL does it, with no prior DRG training beyond standard DRG, to kill Igeyohrm. There are also three DRGs in the Heavens Ward.

As for writing the death of Tiamat into the plot, it could have been done quite easily, since we were shown earlier that the great wyrms are capable of living without their eyes for a period of time long enough to fly off somewhere else, like Nidhogg did when he beseeched Hraesvelgr for an eye. Just imagine events going the same way, only we get up to Tiamat and she has no eyes, and instead of telling us just of her despondency, but also her impending death that she feels she deserves. It'd even up the stakes, because now instead of just 1 eye, Ascians, and the possibility of gaining immeasurable power from the Warring Triad, Thordan VII has three eyes.

If Thordan VII not killing Tiamat isn't a glaringly obvious hole, then it's at least a glaringly obvious chekhov's gun. That term gets thrown around a lot with FFXIV, but boy-o, do we still have quite a few still mounted on the wall. I assume they left her alive due to not wanting to hamfist in another dragon fight in the middle of the climax's momentum, but also in order to leave themselves crumbs for future storylines without robbing any FFI fans of the future possibility of slaying Tiamat like Sakaguchi intended! /wink

But seriously, often times when a story is new and we are just purely enjoying it we do not question plot holes. I think the trope term is, "fridge logic." You get so caught up in what's happening, you don't think about it until way later after you've cooled your jets. I've ruminated on Tiamat being there and just being there ever since our first and only interaction with her in Heavensward. It isn't really something I got imaginative about, just something that occurred to me on what's my 8th playthrough of this storyline(though it is the first time where I've really taken long hard looks at what's presented). The reason I come to this forum at all is due to the interesting imaginings of the posters here, cause yes, a lot of them have imagination more plentiful than me. That's why this sort of banter is fun.

It's less about poking holes in one of my favorite stories, and more about offering different perception