Thank you SE: WHM is fine where it’s at.

[Limonia]

A lily dump skill would give the WHM a choice to expend a lily without nourishing the blood lily as only restorative abilities will do this. That alone would make WHM a little more thought inducing, while also still keeping it pretty basic.

How exactly would you implement a lily dump skill? I don't know if I understand it right, but wouldn't it become the same as Energy Drain? Like, bad SCH always only ever use all of their Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain even if the party absolutely needs healing. You wouldn't be "allowed" to use heals because they could be DPS instead. Like, even if they made Afflatus Misery DPS neutral, they would just randomly overheal with their lilies just to get Misery under raid buffs. So what I just mean is that you would have to be very careful with how you implement something like that. What is your idea about it?

[bundythenoob]

How exactly would you implement a lily dump skill? I don't know if I understand it right, but wouldn't it become the same as Energy Drain? Like, bad SCH always only ever use all of their Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain even if the party absolutely needs healing. You wouldn't be "allowed" to use heals because they could be DPS instead. Like, even if they made Afflatus Misery DPS neutral, they would just randomly overheal with their lilies just to get Misery under raid buffs. So what I just mean is that you would have to be very careful with how you implement something like that. What is your idea about it?

the way I see it, why not keep the lily generation while in combat, but make Lillies generate faster while you're casting dps skills and then make Divine Beni a lily skill? that might make it a little more on demand too. perhaps an AOE beni post lv 80?

[Cheremia]

the way I see it, why not keep the lily generation while in combat, but make Lillies generate faster while you're casting dps skills and then make Divine Beni a lily skill? that might make it a little more on demand too. perhaps an AOE beni post lv 80?

I don't want to go back to Benison being locked behind Lillies. It felt horrible.

WHM already isn't allowed to have AoE shields for some reason outside of Wings while the other 2 healers can do both. Even Benison has a cooldown so while it is usually up for Tankbusters and such, i don't want the only "on demand shield" whm has... to be locked behind Lillies... again....
I would rather take an useful Fluid Aura as a lilly skill than my only shield that would also not be used most of the time which would also make it kind of useless as lilly skill.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't want to go back to Benison being locked behind Lillies. It felt horrible.

I feel like you're conflating two very, very different things here.

The last time Benison was on the Lily system, that Lily system required GCD heals to be cast to generate Lilies (and thereby shorten oGCD CDs, including Benison's).

Now, Lily's are generated every 30 seconds, mirroring Benison's current 30-second CD, which Bundy suggested switching back to a Lily requirement alone. With the context Bundy suggested, however, that effective CD (the time required to generate a Lily) could be far shorter than that when healing (or, depending on the generation requirement, just casting any spell) intensively, potentially allowing one to cast Divine Benison across three targets back to back, having generated their 3 required Lilies over far less than 30 seconds each. That would reduce the Lily skill output floor, true, but the output ceiling could be far higher. Moreover, such a shift would likely include an increase to DB's own power, especially if it were consequently moved to the GCD to mirror the other Lily skills. Slapping down an idea because of how it worked in an entirely different system doesn't seem particularly reasonable.

[Gemina]

I don't want to go back to Benison being locked behind Lillies. It felt horrible.

WHM already isn't allowed to have AoE shields for some reason outside of Wings while the other 2 healers can do both. Even Benison has a cooldown so while it is usually up for Tankbusters and such, i don't want the only "on demand shield" whm has... to be locked behind Lillies... again....
I would rather take an useful Fluid Aura as a lilly skill than my only shield that would also not be used most of the time which would also make it kind of useless as lilly skill.

The issue with SB benison was the lily mechanic didn't do anything other than reduce CD durations. While I won't say Benison should be the dump skill, it now has more merit to be one. While the lily dump skill won't nourish the blood lily, it is possible for it to reduce the time it takes to get the next lily, or there can be something else the WHM does that accomplishes this. The idea is not to dish out more Misery, but to address the over healing and a full lily gauge that is drifting as a result of trying to avoid that.

If the lily dump skill isn't offensive or restorative, then it's going to have to be favorable utility. We can theorycraft on what this skill should be and do, but I also see no reason why Benison cannot be placed here under the new conditions and also either be put on the GCD like the other lily skills, or give it reasonably short cool down.

Does anyone object to WHM being able to whip out multiple Benisons? They can only toss out three, but they would obviously not want to do this.

[Semirhage]

The issue with SB benison was the lily mechanic didn't do anything other than reduce CD durations. While I won't say Benison should be the dump skill, it now has more merit to be one. While the lily dump skill won't nourish the blood lily, it is possible for it to reduce the time it takes to get the next lily, or there can be something else the WHM does that accomplishes this. The idea is not to dish out more Misery, but to address the over healing and a full lily gauge that is drifting as a result of trying to avoid that.

If the lily dump skill isn't offensive or restorative, then it's going to have to be favorable utility. We can theorycraft on what this skill should be and do, but I also see no reason why Benison cannot be placed here under the new conditions and also either be put on the GCD like the other lily skills, or give it reasonably short cool down.

Does anyone object to WHM being able to whip out multiple Benisons? They can only toss out three, but they would obviously not want to do this.

It'd need number tweaking at the very least. Benison is 500 potency, while Flower Cure 2 is 700. Under almost all circumstances, that makes it inferior, especially if it doesn't even refund any damage toward the Blood Lily.

[Gemina]

It'd need number tweaking at the very least. Benison is 500 potency, while Flower Cure 2 is 700. Under almost all circumstances, that makes it inferior, especially if it doesn't even refund any damage toward the Blood Lily.

Indeed it would, but probably not in the way that you think. If you're thinking 700pot shield, that isn't happening. Even if it was that potency, that GCD is still not going to be refunded. However, this is redundant because the idea with Misery is to refund the 3 GCDs that are used to nourish the blood lily to full. If WHM can nourish the lily by whipping out shields, then it immediately changes the identity of this job. Not happening. The pot on Benison at best would remain the same with this change, but the more likely scenario is it would be reduced due to no longer being bound by the 30s CD.

The dump is exactly that, a dump. The WHM uses this either at their own discretion, or to prevent their lily gauge from capping. It cannot be offensive, because once again it will change the identity of the job and turn the afflatus restorative skills into the abilities bad WHMs use. We would want to avoid that.

This does not mean that Benison can't return some other kind of benefit along with it to help give it incentive. In fact, you probably could delete PoM and make it a buff as a result of using Benison. That change right there would leave this lily dump conversation outright; and WHM gameplay would now focus on maintaining their PoM buff, making them the speedy healer, but that would obviously effect their GCDs used on damage as well; meaning WHM will not be playing optimally if they don't use Benison at least once before PoM runs out.

[Shurrikhan]

If WHM can nourish the lily by whipping out shields, then it immediately changes the identity of this job.

Why would it, though? WHM has never been without a shield. First it was the nearly double-strength Stoneskin, then Benison on lilies, and now Benison on CD. Similarly, every "shield healer" has always had HoTs. Why would that make or break a WHM's identity?

[KDSilver]

How exactly would you implement a lily dump skill? I don't know if I understand it right, but wouldn't it become the same as Energy Drain? Like, bad SCH always only ever use all of their Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain even if the party absolutely needs healing.

By slapping a 1min30 CD on it.
It's the time needeed to generate 3 lilies and the blood lily.
This way, if you were about to overcap your lily (cause there really are some situation it happen), you can prevent that and avoid people to mad wasting their lily on the damaging spell instead, leaving their co-healer doing all the work.

That or, allow misery to be used whenever you use a lily with a potency of 300 - 600 - 900 which could open more weaving window and mobility.

Side note : I'm not saying my suggestion is good. But I understand why it's a concern (needeed something else than healing to dumb lilies).
But surely, what I don't want to is not having option because of "bad player". Because if we start arguing with this, there are so many things we shouldn't do or think to fix or enhance jobs gameplay in general.

[Liam_Harper]

That or, allow misery to be used whenever you use a lily with a potency of 300 - 600 - 900 which could open more weaving window and mobility.

I think that would always be a loss used at 1 or 2 unfortunately. For example, 3 Rapture + 3 Misery at 1 lily = 900 potency for 6 GcD. 3 Rapture, 2 Glare, 1 Misery = 1500 potency for 6 GcD. You just wouldn't do it, not even for movement.

Maybe something like:
Fluid Aura
Cast: Instant - Recast 2.5
Deals Water damage with a potency of 300.
Can only be executed after accumulating 3 stacks of Flowing Rapids, granted by using any Ability.
Additional Effect: Binds Target. 10s

(Reminder, Abilities are oGcd's)