why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

[Gula]

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

Now HERE are some big opinions (thought up as facts) with just a dollop of bias.

[kaynide]

What if, in order to serve roast beef, they have to change or outright remove another entry in the menu that other people like? Does it make sense then for people to tell you that you can get roast beef at another restaurant while still enjoying the 98% that you like?

I think the answer to both you and Shougun would be, in this hypothetical:

McD's tries it out, sees how well it sells, compares the numbers to other menu items and cuts an under performer, or an area where it feels it has enough options.
This means 1 less semi-seasonal hamburger instead of 2, but means we now get roast beef, maybe fried chicken. If these sell well, they stay on the menu.
If it bombs, well, maybe next time try a new kind of Fried Chicken or Pizza.

Boils down to the amount of money coming in. (In FFXIV terms, playtime "expended" and subs retained). They obviously want the customers happy, but at the end of the day it is a business and businesses need cash.

[Skivvy]

haha I can totally see that concern, I was actually glass half full on that side of it- thinking that perhaps they don't want to spend loads of resources reworking things when they are taking all their lessons and preparing a new modern extremely silky smooth mmo. Like why 'fix' housing with loads of resources if they're going to be making a new mmo soon? Taking all their best work to sell the new mmo (or big dalamud expansion). Of course I could be wrong, but I think we're looking at the same glass lol.

Also no worries hiding my walls of text, thanks for putting it into the hide thing though. Sometimes I get concerned when people pinch something out and then argue about something I covered already later in the post. "I didn't say what you said I said, quote the whole thing!" XD.

I always appreciate your posts and how positively you get things across, even when it's regarding an issue with the game (housing comes to mind). And I'll try to borrow a tiny bit of your optimism regarding any future SE MMO. If something IS in the works, I can see why they may not want to put a lot of effort into XIV right now (and we have been getting less overall..), and maybe it'll knock our socks off.

[SturmChurro]

SE has enabled them. They have regularly banned players for "constructive criticism", and I mean that literally. Not someone saying it with an insult attached, "hey idiot do this.." So those "toxic casuals" assume their way is the right way, and if you dare say anything it's an immediate report to the GMs much of the time.

[linayar]

I think the answer to both you and Shougun would be, in this hypothetical:

McD's tries it out, sees how well it sells, compares the numbers to other menu items and cuts an under performer, or an area where it feels it has enough options.
This means 1 less semi-seasonal hamburger instead of 2, but means we now get roast beef, maybe fried chicken. If these sell well, they stay on the menu.
If it bombs, well, maybe next time try a new kind of Fried Chicken or Pizza.

Boils down to the amount of money coming in. (In FFXIV terms, playtime "expended" and subs retained). They obviously want the customers happy, but at the end of the day it is a business and businesses need cash.

Of course, but you're speaking from the company's perspective. This thread is about why other customers might be resistant to "constructive" criticisms.

[Ranaku]

Limsa Lominsa is now the RP Hotspot? Idk, maybe my informations are outdated but last time i checked the roleplay community used housing areas etc. to roleplay or roleplay in groups far away from other players because, seriously, PvE players annoy roleplayers with their stuff as much as roleplayers annoy PvE players. xD And Limsa Lominsa is the worst spot to roleplay since it's the PvE hub and no serious roleplayer i know considers doing roleplay there.

Also, most criticism against the game especially from "outsiders" aren't constructive. Outsiders tend to see the community as this giant big blob made out of everyone in the game but seriously just cause like 100 players defend the game like their life depends on it doesn't mean they speak for the whole hundreds of thousands of players. Sorry if you all had your own little bad experience with a toxic fella but that's what it is, your own little experience which weights more cause it's your own. But the truth is...your own little experience doesn't matter when you look at the big picture, cause most players are peaceful and just play their game.

In all my years of playtime i never thought the community itself is toxic, i saw some really mean and kinda evil players but at the end...they are just few compared to the rest. So if you see so much toxic stuff everywhere you should start to ask yourself if you aren't the problem here.

[Penthea]

My biggest criticism is for people who want to rush through the story. I get it, your goal is to get to endgame.

But you're literally trying to rush through YEARS of content in a week / month.

I found a lot of people who have an attitude like this come from WoW. In that game the real meat is in the end-game, whereas in FFXIV you unlock more and more content as you lvl up instead of the lvling experience simply being something you slog through until you finally can do other content (bear in mind I quit WoW at the end of WoD, perhaps this has since changed). I personally did not have trouble adjusting to FFXIV's game design, but I met some people who have and needed to have it explained to them that FFXIV doesn't chiefly focus on end-game unlike some other mmorpgs.

I will add that I wasn't a stranger to the FF series when I started this game, so this could be why I didn't have difficulty adjusting to the idea of a story driven mmo with content that gradually unlocks as you play. A lot of the single player FF games are like this so I wasn't entirely inexperienced with it. I just didn't experience it in a mmo setting before.

[Shougun]

For me, that realization made me not as invested in the story. When I started FFXIV in early 2017, I didn't have a problem taking my time playing through ARR and HW and doing quests. But I've never been able to level via quests in WoW from 1-120. I would either go the dungeon route as soon as I unlock the level 15 dungeons or use a boost. Of course, part of that is also due to the branching nature of WoW's quests compared to the mostly linear MSQ, but a lot had to do with the fact that none of it really matters. You can enter a raid without knowing why you're there in the first place.

I always want a fresh start for FFXIV where you start at a later date and part of the MSQ (mostly because I want them to expand the job choice availability for new characters, ideally to all, present and future jobs). But as you've pointed out, there is some value to having that much story content. Of course, we now have NG+. But I think MSQ (and story quests in general) should remain a requirement to unlock contents.

Yeah I think with NG+ even if you started later you could enjoy the other stuff on your own time which adds a really nice benefit to it.

Like trying to keep it short but I had the thought that some of the trailers could be intro concepts for your character- like you might have that snow capped mountain and an avalanche throws you off causing some memory issues. The game will quickly teach you markers and give you into later combat faster (more abilities), like you might be walking down a path when Ultima's claw shatters through reality and beam line attacks you (teaching players to move out of the way, in a slow motion like setting), then the whole world crumbles and you get voiced combat as some of the MSQ is played while you learn combat. Starting in a small unknown ishgard hamlet, optionally teaching you crafts, helping a person take their wares to the city (where you get help yourself), after some tightly made content (meant to keep strong pace and be smooth) you'll be at the gates of Ishgard where Aymeric can help guide you some over tea, and you'll get a series of quests that'll direct you to other content of the game (like visiting the golden saucer- these quests not being mandatory though and can be picked up again, just there to help send you off to other parts of the game in a friendly / logical way).

Or you might have one relating to Ascians, this one being quite a bit later... maybe too late, but you could have issues when being pulled through the void to the first and Emet personally guides you through, as you visit wild and incomplete worlds (like fragments of reality, MSQ being shown through your aether and the aether of everything else colliding together, again teaching you some key parts of the story, combat, and then leaving you with a few optional quests that'll guide you to the next location). Tweak some of the MSQ dialog after that and it'd be actually pretty neat I think.

Also another thing to add because of NG+ these alternate starts are really just extra quests for any other players, even if you don't need to start later you could just take your main character through that content. So SE can put some extra bonus in them too, ideally some item to match the theme of the start. That and if you do this you might be able to offer jobs or races in a way you couldn't normally, like starting the game as the new job "start 6.0 as a Chemist!" (or whatever job), or a race that might not have fit without a disguise in previous parts of the game (and when you have NG+ on and in the history it could apply a disguise to your character, like the Ishgard Garlean girl uses with that circlet lol).

I think there are many points in the story that'll make sense without 325 hours of back story, like I don't need to know about ARR white auracite to get what it does in ShB becaues it was both explained and self explanatory lol. The amount of depth will improve if you did 325, and paid attention (which not everyone will do at all times, I've had a few late night sleepy 2.0 era MSQ moments where I was like "what did I do last night....? lol yolo"), but with NG+ I also think players who are interested enough can do those to get greater depth at their own decision. Especially if for example they kept some big rewards behind the NG+ if you skipped it through the accelerated start (like getting free fantasia in ARR, or some of the mounts).

What if, in order to serve roast beef, they have to change or outright remove another entry in the menu that other people like? Does it make sense then for people to tell you that you can get roast beef at another restaurant while still enjoying the 98% that you like?

That is entirely possible, but I tend to believe we are not the ones that should be SE's 'final' content planners to that scale. Like before ultimate people would be saying how it'll steal resources away and no way- but now we have it because SE decided to do that anyways. ('final' used just to note that I think people can say what they think would or wouldn't fit best but not saying something can or cannot happen and they should go else where if they want it- like what happened with SMN pre-demi / trance). SE can decide for themselves if you should go elsewhere lol.

So yes you're right it could be a thing, where the game has to do a 180 in order to compensate a desire, but I don't think many examples require that.

Like if someone wants more open world content, or another ways more personal instanced content, currently the game caters to both and there might be a shift in balance at each expansion, but neither should be telling the other to go elsewhere if they wanted more or less of something that the game clearly wants to cater to.

Yes, I think you made a real possible example, but also no I don't think players should be playing the accountant / content gate keeper . Like I see fairly often people with very fixed ideas of what lore can or can't do, with zero room for maneuvering, but then a month later SE proves them wrong, SMN can't do that, beast tribes can't have this, etc, etc, then SE is like 'but wait they can!". lol.

Personally think it's better we say what we wish, why we wish it, and perhaps if you've the thoughts the how as well, while not threatening SE of course. And if you legitimately hate the game then sure.. of course you should probably go play another game, but I've seen and both been personally told to play other games because a bit sour feeling about a single piece content out of a huge pile, or if a bias to a certain type that could or does already exist without a complete reconstruction of the identity of the game.

I always appreciate your posts and how positively you get things across, even when it's regarding an issue with the game (housing comes to mind). And I'll try to borrow a tiny bit of your optimism regarding any future SE MMO. If something IS in the works, I can see why they may not want to put a lot of effort into XIV right now (and we have been getting less overall..), and maybe it'll knock our socks off.

. . . <3



I you, I regularly enjoy your posts.

Although on the optimism part I might need your help when it comes to blue mage lol. I get a bit sour and dramatic there, self admittedly.

[MsMisato]

I've not run across another MMO that forces 100% of the MSQ on you if you want to do relevant content. Even SE's only other MMO, XI, didn't do that.

FFXI was heavily gated with the story. Sure you had access to the zones, but certain things and fights were locked behind the Nations Story/zilart missions/CoP/WoG/. One example Airpass unless you paid 400k (which at launch was a ridiculous amount) but free if you completed Rank 4 missions. As there were not any teleport crystals in place. You had the WHM taxi express which cost money provided you had the appropriate Tele crystal. CoP was also gated with the story to access the fights like Sea which was relevant back in the day. I will say this, FFXI at the start was not very friendly and very party heavy centric along with the story. However, as time moved on they definitely improved access to content for an 18 year old game and its definitely ridiculously easy to get everything done now with RoV.

[Melichoir]

Maybe I'm weird but to me "go somewhere else" just comes off as incredibly condescending and rude and almost never used in a way that feels justified. Like "I don't mean to be rude but" is almost always going to have something rude follow it.

If you dont like the forums, maybe you should go to another place.



Ok terrible jokes aside, the issue I tend to see when this gets brought up is core aspects vs optimization aspects.

A basic way to say this is if someone came in and said "You know what, the game should be an FPS cause FPS are better than MMOs." That literally is a core aspect of FFXIV gameplay and style - to be a quest driven MMO and not an FPS. The suggestion doesnt fit and isnt 'constructive' in any way. At that point, the only answer really is "Maybe playing something else is better for you."

This doesnt mean that there arent aspects from other games that wouldnt work or improve FFXIV.

For example, the transmog format of WoW I think is broadly superior to how the glamour dresser here works and what I think would be cool is once you acquire a piece of gear, it gets added to a listing you can access at any time. This is an optimization aspect where you take an element from another similar game and apply aspects of it to this one to improve it's format without undermining its core purpose or intent. In this case specifically, it's making glamour more accessible so you can better customize your character without having to worry about inventory space.

Where people get hung up and stumble is when they make suggestions that are counter to a core aspect of the game. A specific example of this is WoW vs FFXIV in terms of MSQ and story. FFXIV is first and foremost a 'final fantasy' title and will be heavily story and narrative driven. The game is, as a result, designed around MSQ. This isnt like WoW, where youre more a spectator in events that unfold. Whether you directly participate or not, the story will progress without you. In FFXIV, you are the hero, in WoW you are a hero. This leads to differences in how the game is set up and gameplay aspects and of course it comes with pros and cons to each format. Those format differences may not be your speed, and maybe another MMO might be more suited for you in that regards. In this case, suggesting that we should scrap a core aspect of what is key to FFXIV in favor of making it more like WoW is gonna receive push back.