why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

[Melichoir]

I've seen a lot of debates recently between people about whether or not we should be getting more content, or just about people wanting different kinds of content to what we're getting right now, and while I don't necessarily agree or disagree with either side, there seems to be such a dramatic response to everything. If someone who's main interest is savage or ultimate raiding says they want more content on that side of the game, or more repeatable content, so many people will just say stuff like "well you might not care about the story, but final fantasy is a story game so that's the most important part" and so on, and do stuff like tell them to go back to wow and that ffxiv isn't made for them.

and like, while I do really enjoy the higher difficulty endgame fights in the game, I don't have the perspective of a story skipper. I love the story and it's my favorite part of the game, and I also love a lot of the more "casual" content (like crafting/gathering, map hunts, glamour, just socializing with people in the overworld and so on). But that doesn't mean that I like all the content in the game, or the direction it's taking everything.

Personally, I dislike shiva unreal for a variety of reasons, I wish we didn't get less dungeons with post-shb patches compared to stormblood, and I dislike the recent ast changes. I love the game, and I loved most of 5.3, but there are still things I would like to see changed about the game.

I love ffxiv, but nothing is flawless. Why do so many people act like having personal opinions on how the game could get even better is toxic?

Constructive Feedback:
I think the mechanics of 'B' boss were a bit overtuned because of x, y, and z. Testing and numbers show this. A better approach may have been to dial back some a bit of the damage and have the fight operate in a fashion more similar to boss 'A'.

Non Constructive Feedback:
This game sucks. WoW does this an that and theres no reason for FFXIV to play like this. It should be more like WoW. And they make a bajillion dollars so there should be so much content but SE super greedy and terrible and this game still sucks. It needs to change so it can be more like WoW.


The simple truth of the matter is that a lot of "constructive critique' is given in the latter format, not former. There are obvious areas that the game could improve in, but people typically over generalize their complaints and unfairly give them out. They dont take the time to think about their feedback, how they came to it, and what would be plausible solution to it. Nor do many people who hand out their critiques take the time to listen to the counter points offered by other players.

[linayar]

If I was hearing about how amazing Shadowlands (WoW) was but then told I had to invest 325 hours of content that I wasn't sure would be as good as shadowlands just before I could even try it, I might sincerely think "yeah, no thanks".

For me, that realization made me not as invested in the story. When I started FFXIV in early 2017, I didn't have a problem taking my time playing through ARR and HW and doing quests. But I've never been able to level via quests in WoW from 1-120. I would either go the dungeon route as soon as I unlock the level 15 dungeons or use a boost. Of course, part of that is also due to the branching nature of WoW's quests compared to the mostly linear MSQ, but a lot had to do with the fact that none of it really matters. You can enter a raid without knowing why you're there in the first place.

I always want a fresh start for FFXIV where you start at a later date and part of the MSQ (mostly because I want them to expand the job choice availability for new characters, ideally to all, present and future jobs). But as you've pointed out, there is some value to having that much story content. Of course, we now have NG+. But I think MSQ (and story quests in general) should remain a requirement to unlock contents.

[Theodric]

I'd say there's a pretty high amount of constructive feedback posted around these parts, it just so happens that a lot of people like to keep the non-constructive threads active and at the top of the page instead of just ignoring them and engaging with the more sensible threads. A common tactic in this day and age, come to think of it - because then the people who want the status quo to remain at any cost can then turn around and claim that most feedback is worded poorly.

Then again, so long as the thread itself is in line with the terms of service then it isn't the business of backseat moderators to 'tone police'. Especially when there's a need to account for cultural differences and personality differences - often someone being to the point is enough for that individual to be brushed off as 'non-constructive' just because they opt to not lace their every word with sugar.

Another factor is that our community representatives are often silent and do not weigh in even on constructive threads highlighting genuine issues. I often use it as an example, but players in the European region have not had a promotional campaign for the fat black chocobo mount. North American and Japanese players have, however - yet there hasn't been any word on the subject for the sake of updating European players on the situation.

[Skivvy]

Which is while I personally enjoyed the story, and I know others have, I still have suggested that if they carry on much longer that they create a new, optional, start to the game that can, as best as possible with limited amount of time, create a grounded and accelerated start into the game (I also think it could be an opportunity to refine a start, since I think it can be a bit meandering and they could polish the stages of excitement to make the start hook sink deeper).

If we get into 8.0 and everything keeps stacking as it has so far then its going to be like 75 (2.0) + 50 (3.0) + 50 (4.0) + 50 (5.0) + 50 (6.0) + 50 (7.0) = ~325 + / - 100 hours of mostly just story walls (assuming you don't skip every cutscene and do a few quests here and there or try different jobs occasionally, I'm sure someone 'speed running' the MSQ and knew the game already could cut that down by 70%). Three hundred twenty five hours. I didn't spend half that much time to complete every quest and nearly all the sets and potions in Witcher 3. On the bright side if you were looking for an insanely long game, boy have I found you a treat lol. Even if you make that more accurate to our situation and say time to get to 6.0 (our next expansion), it's still roughly 225 hours (assuming a new person playing pretty standard, occasionally getting side tracked by other quests, and who isn't being guided / dragged at warp speed - not some FFXIV vet replaying the story again and bee-lining to everything they need while skipping most dialog).

I think this number is still a good thing for some people, as a player that's played it mostly as it's been released it's been great, but it is also can be a bad thing for others for varying reasons. Just a very daunting fact for example, like telling someone they need to invest $100 into a game upfront would turn away a lot of people even if it was absolutely worth it (not saying FFXIV is $100, I'm giving a comparison of daunting). Also some people, I'd say most, that come past a game's start come either due to friends, burned from their current MMO, or hype from an expansion pre and post release. If I was hearing about how amazing Shadowlands (WoW) was but then told I had to invest 325 hours of content that I wasn't sure would be as good as shadowlands just before I could even try it, I might sincerely think "yeah, no thanks". Especially if I heard combat from x to y is a bit boring by y to z is not, then you tell me I have to spend many many hours in the x to y area. Just a few of many many examples that could be made about someone coming in late and then being fronted with nearly 100%'ing witcher 3 twice just to catch up lol.

Alternatively it's also why when Yoshida has, multiple times, talked about another dalamud, and all the other side data- number of hours requiring significant time to catch up, this being an issue if people started to play specifically because of expansion hype, getting close to the distance from FFXI to FFXIV arr's release, number of jobs getting close to matching to FFXI, technological hurdles being probably easier, or at least less scary, to fix starting new (like glamour log), getting all those legacy players to pay full amount again (that's some nice $$), approaching the end of the MSQ we've been on for so long (doesn't mean there can't be more after that, of course- just this zodiark / hyd is coming to close), that I really do think it's high potential for something big coming, either another ARR like change expansion or a new mmo (and by coming I'm thinking like 1-3 years from now).

Not trying to be rude by hiding...

I just didn't want to detract from the overall topic by making this a "MSQ IS GREAT/MSQ IS BAD" thread as we already have a ton. But I do agree that to a new player, the MSQ could be an incredibly daunting wall to be faced with. At this point new players are probably brought in by friends, or by the hype of a current expansion, but they won't be able to join in for a very, very long time if current content is where their heart is set. That's not a fantastic design.

As far as the potential for a new MMO by SE - I've thought about this a lot, and honestly I'd be a bit hesitant to jump right in due to all the shortcomings that have presented themselves in XIV. I have a long list of things I take issue with in this game (will spare the details!), but it really makes me question the ability of SE to create an MMO that feels modern, isn't clunky, and isn't continually held back by server limitations.

[Shougun]

Constructive is the key word here.
Walking into a McDonald's and complaining that they don't serve roast beef is not constructive, and being told that perhaps you would prefer to go to Arby's instead is not toxic, so long as you do so politely.

I think people still do this way too eagerly.

"You know I would prefer if this content was more frequent and that one was less"
"well how about you go play another game since you don't like this one"
"....what?"

Even if it was more polite, since I sort of missed that step in my example lol, I still think people are way too eager to pull the "go back to / leave this country then" remarks.

If I like 98% of the menu of McDonalds and what would make it 100% perfect is roast beef then I don't think the best response ot that is "why dont you go to another place then?". McDonalds could serve roast beef.

Being annoyed they don't I think is fine, even if it isn't most constructive. Suggesting how they might achieve this without an entire self destruct of their identity or supply chain, well that would be more constructive.

Especially if we take out the McDonalds and insert more game relating things, since it's like "I really wish there was harder content then savage" and then players just pound the thal out of them because GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME, GO HOME, and then comes SE going "actually, we could do that- here have ultimate".

So even if someone is complaining and another store currently does it better, I think "go somewhere else" is one of the least constructive suggestions I've seen used in the forums.

Going to a personal example, from someone I think in general is quite nice on the forums, I was talking about how I prefer content that responds to me personally yet was glad that they try new things and just hope the ratio of types of content doesn't drastically shift in the future. Then we jump to "maybe you should go play another game if you prefer things respond to yourself". Which felt both rude and inaccurate- seeing as the game is majority personal response anyways lol (MSQ, beast tribes, doma, etc, etc, etc- with dabs of time based, and like only one actual community based location, one.. lol).

Maybe I'm weird but to me "go somewhere else" just comes off as incredibly condescending and rude and almost never used in a way that feels justified. Like "I don't mean to be rude but" is almost always going to have something rude follow it.

"I'm not a racist but", get ready for the racist comment xD.

I guess I'm not sure I'd say it's toxic but I would say it seems to be highly likely to be used as a sort of barrier to conversation and generally used too lightly and imo inappropriately. Given that this is a place for feedback, and SE caters to a very diverse set of players.

Not trying to be rude by hiding...

I just didn't want to detract from the overall topic by making this a "MSQ IS GREAT/MSQ IS BAD" thread as we already have a ton. But I do agree that to a new player, the MSQ could be an incredibly daunting wall to be faced with. At this point new players are probably brought in by friends, or by the hype of a current expansion, but they won't be able to join in for a very, very long time if current content is where their heart is set. That's not a fantastic design.

As far as the potential for a new MMO by SE - I've thought about this a lot, and honestly I'd be a bit hesitant to jump right in due to all the shortcomings that have presented themselves in XIV. I have a long list of things I take issue with in this game (will spare the details!), but it really makes me question the ability of SE to create an MMO that feels modern, isn't clunky, and isn't continually held back by server limitations.

haha I can totally see that concern, I was actually glass half full on that side of it- thinking that perhaps they don't want to spend loads of resources reworking things when they are taking all their lessons and preparing a new modern extremely silky smooth mmo. Like why 'fix' housing with loads of resources if they're going to be making a new mmo soon? Taking all their best work to sell the new mmo (or big dalamud expansion). Of course I could be wrong, but I think we're looking at the same glass lol.

Also no worries hiding my walls of text, thanks for putting it into the hide thing though. Sometimes I get concerned when people pinch something out and then argue about something I covered already later in the post. "I didn't say what you said I said, quote the whole thing!" XD.

[Amnmaat]

It's a culture thing, in some regions of the world the corporation can never be wrong, it's the people who are at fault, they say. They're just practicing demo kratia, divide and conquer.

[Ayuhra]

I criticize the game a lot so I don't know. I think people don't want to see the game change away from what they enjoy.

I can understand that, which is why my criticisms are mostly about streamlining the game from the top down.

Not dumbing it down, just streamlining. Letting us do everything we do now with fewer button clicks and menus. (I'm not talking about rotations here although, yeah, I think some of the abilities that are only kept on bars for synced content and abilities that have low impact and are not very fun to hit should be reevaluated. That's a slightly different conversation)

[linayar]

If I like 98% of the menu of McDonalds and what would make it 100% perfect is roast beef then I don't think the best response ot that is "why dont you go to another place then?". McDonalds could serve roast beef.

What if, in order to serve roast beef, they have to change or outright remove another entry in the menu that other people like? Does it make sense then for people to tell you that you can get roast beef at another restaurant while still enjoying the 98% that you like?

[Arillyn]

Obviously opinions will vary on this, but I don't think it's a bad idea to have some requirements for unlocking content. With XI, each major end-game activity had various reqs to get into. Many were fairly minimal, but Sea was one that took just about the entire CoP story line to get into. However, it didn't require full completion of everything that came before it.

I feel having options to how you approach story completion is never a bad thing. Let people take it more at their own pace. XIV does have a grand, overarching story line, so I can see how it would be more difficult to break things up, but I feel like they could tweak it at least a little where some of the additional dialogue gets put into side quests vs. in the main story. A bit like what they've done with the ARR revamp.

I do tend to mention XI with this topic mainly due to how often replies of "The story is their thing! You shouldn't play if you don't want to enjoy the story" crop up. I feel like comparing their single-player games to an MMO is rather disingenuous - far better to compare their two MMOs to each other since they are actually in the same genre of game.

But again, ultimately it's SE's decision how they release content. It's not necessarily going to be for everyone, and it's up to us to decide if we can hang or not. Doesn't mean we can't critique things and hope it improves, but we need to temper those expectations. (that last bit is just as much for myself as everyone else D: lol)

Yea I remember new areas were unlocked in XI, but they are in the story in XIV too. I agree, the big difference is that in XI the expansions were independent of each other. I mean, they all fit in the overarching game of course - but if you didn't complete Zilart, you could still do and complete CoP. But of course in XIV it's one big story with new chapters and they all build on each other. I personally like that, but I can see where some people don't.

I am glad that they did that with ARR this patch - smoothing it out some. It takes a bunch of things out to speed some things along (there was a lot of filler in there). SE didn't put a lot of filler in the subsequent expansions and I'm glad they did that. I felt it helped move HW, SB and ShB along better.

And I don't mind critiques of the game at all. I really enjoy the game, but it's not perfect and things can be improved upon for sure. I just don't want the fundamental game design to be changed. As for the story part itself - it's new to people who have never played the game. But like Shougun said - it will be a lot of story when getting to 8.0 and beyond (if the game has that many expansions) so SE may need to do something at that point - a recap? I don't know. But then again, if someone is brand new to the game, all of it would be new to them.

[dangadget]

If I like 98% of the menu of McDonalds and what would make it 100% perfect is roast beef then I don't think the best response ot that is "why dont you go to another place then?". McDonalds could serve roast beef.

XD.

Here's the thing.
No one is telling you not to like roast beef, they are telling you that McDs doesn't serve it, but if you're really hankering for it, there's a place that does.
It's a choice, it's not like you can't have both if you want to, but you have to understand where you need to go in order to get what you're looking for.
I don't play FF14 for engaging action-style combat, I play other games for that, and I accept and understand that nothing can be everything to everyone.