The role name "Healer" should be changed.

[Gemina]

Gosh this is petty.

Agreed.

They can call it whatever, you're still a healer in the sense that it is your primary responsibility to sustain the group through both unavoidable AND avoidable damage. This is done via healing and this responsibility falls solely on you.

Everyone is a support role in this game, including the DPS.

[Veis_Alveare]

Agreed.

They can call it whatever, you're still a healer in the sense that it is your primary responsibility to sustain the group through both unavoidable AND avoidable damage. This is done via healing and this responsibility falls solely on you.

Everyone is a support role in this game, including the DPS.

Your primary responsibility as a healer is to clear the instance by killing the enemies, same as anyone else. The only difference is you have comparatively more skills that restore HP.

[Gemina]

Your primary responsibility as a healer is to clear the instance by killing the enemies, same as anyone else. The only difference is you have comparatively more skills that restore HP.

Spin it how you want. It's still your primary responsibility to sustain the group, and DPS stops when heals are needed. Period. Number of skills is entirely irrelevant, but if you want to go there you might want consider not how many more healing skills you have opposed to DPS abilities, but rather how many/few of those abilities you have in respect to the other members of your group.

No matter if your perspective is "I DPS until it's time to heal" or "I DPS when heals aren't needed." you're still cut from the same cloth. So please stop wasting your time trying be right.

[Shurrikhan]

No matter if your perspective is "I DPS until it's time to heal" or "I DPS when heals aren't needed." you're still cut from the same cloth. So please stop wasting your time trying be right.

By the same coin, though... she's not wrong, either.

And if it's just the time-tried question of half-full or half-empty, it seems logical to approach it from whatever end most feels pertinent to one's game experience. If, to them, that's "Green DPS" more so than "Healer (who spends most of their time dealing damage)", what's it matter to you?

:: For my own part, I'd bring a healer, except where forced anyways, when/if bringing one makes me clear the fight faster than not, and I'd prefer from them whichever behavior on average (including any wipes caused) clears the fight faster, so if they're not the same cloth, then... I'd have to go with hers instead.

[Gemina]

By the same coin, though... she's not wrong, either.

And if it's just the time-tried question if half-full or half-empty, it seems logical to approach it from whatever end most feels pertinent to one's game experience. If, to them, that's "Green DPS" more so than "Healer (who spends most of their time dealing damage)", what's it matter to you?

:: For my own part, I'd bring a healer, except where forced anyways, when/if bringing one makes me clear the fight faster than not, and I'd prefer from them whichever behavior on average (including any wipes caused) clears the fight faster, so if they're not the same cloth, then... I'd have to go with hers instead.

I never said she was wrong. Whether we should be DPSing or not is tired old argument. That's why I brought up that the two mentalities are cut from the same cloth. But some posters just have to be argumentative and express, "My mentality is right, and yours is wrong.", and I tire of that argument from five years ago because when both of us are in combat, our actions as far as the decision to DPS or heal will likely be very similar. That is why I say save your breath for more constructive arguments.

[Veis_Alveare]

Spin it how you want. It's still your primary responsibility to sustain the group, and DPS stops when heals are needed. Period. Number of skills is entirely irrelevant, but if you want to go there you might want consider not how many more healing skills you have opposed to DPS abilities, but rather how many/few of those abilities you have in respect to the other members of your group.

No matter if your perspective is "I DPS until it's time to heal" or "I DPS when heals aren't needed." you're still cut from the same cloth. So please stop wasting your time trying be right.

I'm not trying to be right, just pointing out where you're wrong. I understand that you aren't some curebot, I'm glad for it and happy for all the parties that get you... that doesn't mean you aren't staying something that's blatantly false, though.

Everyone's objectives are the same in XIV. We are all given toolkits with varying degrees of damage and support and it's up to us to use them as best we can to clear every instance. That means killing the enemies while allowing our party members to do the same. A tank mitigating, a dps avoiding excess incoming damage, a healer healing up unavoidable damage - they're all the same thing, they're just letting your teammates continue chipping away at the enemies.

If we want to talk percentage comparisons let's look at the number of GCDs spent on damage versus healing, or even HPS versus DPS. Outside of later Savage floors or Ultimate I'm virtually always contributing more DPS than HPS... so why am I called a healer then?

Until we can honestly look at every person in an instance and see them as equals with exactly the same responsibilities we will continue having the completely stupid healer dps debate. I don't want to contribute to that, do you?

[Gemina]

I'm not trying to be right, just pointing out where you're wrong. I understand that you aren't some curebot, I'm glad for it and happy for all the parties that get you... that doesn't mean you aren't staying something that's blatantly false, though.

Everyone's objectives are the same in XIV. We are all given toolkits with varying degrees of damage and support and it's up to us to use them as best we can to clear every instance. That means killing the enemies while allowing our party members to do the same. A tank mitigating, a dps avoiding excess incoming damage, a healer healing up unavoidable damage - they're all the same thing, they're just letting your teammates continue chipping away at the enemies.

If we want to talk percentage comparisons let's look at the number of GCDs spent on damage versus healing, or even HPS versus DPS. Outside of later Savage floors or Ultimate I'm virtually always contributing more DPS than HPS... so why am I called a healer then?

Until we can honestly look at every person in an instance and see them as equals with exactly the same responsibilities we will continue having the completely stupid healer dps debate. I don't want to contribute to that, do you?

Ok, where have you pointed out that I'm wrong? Simply telling me I'm wrong doesn't make it so, and if you're unable to indisputably exhibit that I am wrong, then you best be right. However, hopefully I don't have to scream into your ear for you to get that regardless of your perspective, it doesn't change how you optimize the healer toolkit. Tell me, what am I stating that is blatantly false? Best be careful to make sure that it isn't just your opinion.

Sure, everyone's objectives in PvE are the same: Kill the enemy, and win. So what? That does very little to prove your point, as this objective is an umbrella that all roles fall under, and if you are keeping the tank and DPS from eating the floor, you are still contributing towards making this happen. However, I'm not going to go back and forth with you all day over what should be elementary basics for you; because I can tell you this, if a player hits the mat and you could have prevented it, then you're not paying attention to what you should be doing. They are going to look right at you.

If you want to go off on a tangent about being a green-DPS, then this tells me your frustration has little to do with me, and more with healer design in FFXIV.

And no, not all jobs are created equal, and a current issue we do have with the game is SEs attempts to homogenize the jobs within a given role. Everyone does have the responsibility of contributing as much damage as possible, but tanks and healers have other responsibilities as well. And we can continue this 'DPS or heals first' debate if you wish, but that is even more redundant than the healer DPS debate, which has been buried for a long time now.

[Gravagar]

And no, not all jobs are created equal, and a current issue we do have with the game is SEs attempts to homogenize the jobs within a given role. Everyone does have the responsibility of contributing as much damage as possible, but tanks and healers have other responsibilities as well. And we can continue this 'DPS or heals first' debate if you wish, but that is even more redundant than the healer DPS debate, which has been buried for a long time now.

Things are getting a little heated here and we're deviating from the topic, so I'll say...
You call my position petty, sure, but I ask you to look at the greater meaning. This title of "Pure healer" that we've been shackled to this expansion, after seeing a so-called "pure healer" in Stormblood WHM (which I then proceeded to not play, because I'm not into that,) is... Well, Pure Healer. Renaming the role "Healer", to fit its actual in-game playstyle, means dropping the "healer" part of "pure healer." That pretty much calls for a formal divorce from the illusion that FF14 is a game where you can play a pure healer, and (while playing a pure healer) be a highly effective member of your party. If I'm able to keep preventable deaths at 0, while also pumping out damage that shaves seconds / minutes off the fight's duration, I'm more effective, right?
Healer design principles are not vibin' with healer playstyles or healer-PoV encounter design at all. The name isn't helping. Officially changing its name to reflect its playstyle, and dropping this nonsense where everyone is forced to be a "pure healer" even when they just want to be an effective healer, would show a level of understanding not shown to the role since the dropping of Accuracy and the addition of Stoneskin II... And I think that is something sorely needed right now. Does that put things in a more understandable perspective?

[Veis_Alveare]

Ok, where have you pointed out that I'm wrong? Simply telling me I'm wrong doesn't make it so, and if you're unable to indisputably exhibit that I am wrong, then you best be right. However, hopefully I don't have to scream into your ear for you to get that regardless of your perspective, it doesn't change how you optimize the healer toolkit. Tell me, what am I stating that is blatantly false? Best be careful to make sure that it isn't just your opinion.

Sure, everyone's objectives in PvE are the same: Kill the enemy, and win. So what? That does very little to prove your point, as this objective is an umbrella that all roles fall under, and if you are keeping the tank and DPS from eating the floor, you are still contributing towards making this happen. However, I'm not going to go back and forth with you all day over what should be elementary basics for you; because I can tell you this, if a player hits the mat and you could have prevented it, then you're not paying attention to what you should be doing. They are going to look right at you.

If you want to go off on a tangent about being a green-DPS, then this tells me your frustration has little to do with me, and more with healer design in FFXIV.

And no, not all jobs are created equal, and a current issue we do have with the game is SEs attempts to homogenize the jobs within a given role. Everyone does have the responsibility of contributing as much damage as possible, but tanks and healers have other responsibilities as well. And we can continue this 'DPS or heals first' debate if you wish, but that is even more redundant than the healer DPS debate, which has been buried for a long time now.

Okay, so I guess youre sold on being belligerently argumentative. That's cool, it doesn't make you correct though.

I pointed out youre wrong because, in the absolute most basic sense, you're using the word 'primary' incorrectly.

Your primary responsibility is to facilitate the victory conditions of the instance. In this game there are no instances where the goal is to heal a target to a certain amount of HP or anything, if there was everyone's job would remain the same though - to win.

You do this by using your whole kit, unless you're a lazy freeloader which we have established that we aren't nor are we talking about them.

You're just jumping to crazy extremes to try to justify your points but all this b.s. about not letting people die to avoidable damage and stuff doesn't matter since I never said that you should do that. Sometimes it is the right decision to let someone die to avoidable damage, be it because they're a mechanical detriment while alive or just a resource drain from repeated deaths. It isn't all that uncommon either. I had it in trial roulette literally this morning, a tank provoke war on Ravana that killed my cohealer and two dps with cleaves. I let the guy die so that we could get things back online then raised him once it was safe to do so. With weakness even when he would voke the other tank could take it back immediately and so we didn't have a spinning blender of a boss.

You can keep strawmanning if you want, at the end of the day no matter what role you queue on your objectives in any content are the same. Clear x room, slay y boss, repeat. It is never "heal these people" that's just a thing we sometimes do to facilitate our actual primary responsibility of killing the enemies before they get us or we run out of time.