DRK enmity gen vs other tanks

[Leiron]

Because some people, like myself, want enmity combos to comeback for enmity based mechanics(they just need to be DPS neutral like same potency as your main combo and same resource generation as main combo) or to have a clearer distinction of what a Main tank and off tank is supposed to be.

The issue is you can get the same effect by simply shutting off your stance after allowing the MT to get initial agro. The issue with enmity combos is they aren't inherently adding anything to gameplay.Warrior had 3 different combos, one for enmity, a damage buff, and self healing. You HAD to use your damage buff combo after enmity in order to increase the enmity generation per combo.
You occasionally used self healing ability, but that just makes you a little squishier if you spammed BB all the time.
I would argue stance dancing provided more of a dynamic.
You could just shut off your stance for the increased damage, toss your stance up for the tank swap, provoke and then finish your enmity combo for a chunk of threat.
Stance dancing did more than combos did in terms of gameplay behavior./

[DRKoftheAzure]

The issue is you can get the same effect by simply shutting off your stance after allowing the MT to get initial agro. The issue with enmity combos is they aren't inherently adding anything to gameplay.Warrior had 3 different combos, one for enmity, a damage buff, and self healing. You HAD to use your damage buff combo after enmity in order to increase the enmity generation per combo.
You occasionally used self healing ability, but that just makes you a little squishier if you spammed BB all the time.
I would argue stance dancing provided more of a dynamic.
You could just shut off your stance for the increased damage, toss your stance up for the tank swap, provoke and then finish your enmity combo for a chunk of threat.
Stance dancing did more than combos did in terms of gameplay behavior./

I will say that the damage buff combo ender is probably the dumbest thing that hasn't gone away yet...


In fact, I think damage buffs tied to any damage dealing ability that requires you to successfully hit the target you want to do damage to is dumb, then again I was spoiled by pre-Shadowbringers Darkside...


Stance dancing did provide more of a dynamic, but only for Warriors due to their stances not being tied to the GCD...


And if you didn't have tank stance on but you weren't second on enmity list, your main tank expected you to use enmity combos... Before the advent of Provoke + Shirk...


Now everyone in the party are wondering why the off tank isn't second on enmity list because they get destroyed by the boss, and if your off tank isn't dead and they don't have tank stance on, it's time to bring back enmity combos... and DPS stances for good measure...

[ForteNightshade]

And if you didn't have tank stance on but you weren't second on enmity list, your main tank expected you to use enmity combos... Before the advent of Provoke + Shirk...

Uh, no they didn't. The OT only touched their aggro combo if they were picking up an add. Even then, particularly aggressive Dark Knights and Warriors throughout Creator still grabbed adds without tank stance. If there was aggro issues due to lacking Shadewalker, the Warrior voked and turned on Defiance+Unchained. They didn't even have to use a Butcher's combo. Just a combo and an Equilibrium overheal was more than enough. You never used aggro combos as the OT.

Now everyone in the party are wondering why the off tank isn't second on enmity list because they get destroyed by the boss, and if your off tank isn't dead and they don't have tank stance on, it's time to bring back enmity combos... and DPS stances for good measure...

There's no reason for anyone else to care about the aggro list. Either the boss targets both tanks, in which case keeping your stance on solves the issue. Or it doesn't and being second aggro makes no difference whatsoever. Bringing back enmity combos would lead to the situation they were in previously: completely ignored. If you made them DPS neutral, then they're glorified glamours that serve no purpose.

[Vyrerus]

Uh, no they didn't. The OT only touched their aggro combo if they were picking up an add. Even then, particularly aggressive Dark Knights and Warriors throughout Creator still grabbed adds without tank stance. If there was aggro issues due to lacking Shadewalker, the Warrior voked and turned on Defiance+Unchained. They didn't even have to use a Butcher's combo. Just a combo and an Equilibrium overheal was more than enough. You never used aggro combos as the OT.

Incorrect in a double WAR comp. And technically incorrect in comp with PLD before the Royal Authority combo switched over to Riot Blade.

[ForteNightshade]

Incorrect in a double WAR comp. And technically incorrect in comp with PLD before the Royal Authority combo switched over to Riot Blade.

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

[Absurdity]

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

He is technically right. If you didn't need to debuff the boss with Storm's Path and it wouldn't cause enmity issues you would use Butcher's because it simply had a higher potency, that was before the SB changes where Path gained you more "rage" than BB.

[Vyrerus]

Perhaps in ARR days, which I cannot speak to readily as I only started in Heavensward. But once the DPS focused meta established itself late Gordias, the OT was not using aggro combos. Furthermore, double anything was not meta by that point thus is rather moot. And as you said, Paladin had their combo swapped to avoid aggro issues. By the time Creator came around, it wasn't uncommon to see tanks picking up adds without stance or aggro combos even if it meant letting the DPS eat an auto or two. They certainly weren't aggro combo-ing.

Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

[ForteNightshade]

Assuming that people only played with the exact meta in raiding is a silly way to think about the time period(and the game in any time really). People used double WAR all the time due to its OP self-healing and reliant damage output that had less variance than DRK's due to part of DRK's being tied up in low blow procs/Reprisal. Sell runs and the like used double WAR all the time. The only time to not double WAR was when LB charge mattered, which wasn't a lot of fights, and in early prog due to having more damage downs on the boss(Reprisal/Delirium).

I never said they only played with the "exact meta." But the overwhelming majority of tank comps were WAR/DRK. Making them the most relevant to the discussion. PLD had aggro issues but that was among the reasons it wasn't often brought.

No, they did not. There is not a single ranked speed log from the Heavensward era with double Warrior. Dark Knight was undeniably the second tank. I have no idea where you've heard otherwise but it wasn't the case—nor was double Warrior all that common. Basing anything off sale groups is silly. They aren't trying to optimize unless they're selling a parse. Even then, they'll pad that one player not the entire team. Regardless, the crux of the argument was the OT used aggro combos for enmity. They didn't. Butcher's used to be a DPS gain before they buffed Storm's Path.