Rules of Primal summoning

[Vulcwen]

I still remember the devs talking about the mechanics of primal summoning and that it involves drawing a soul from the lifestream. And there is support for that idea. With self-summoning, the summoner itself would be the soul of the primal, with external summoning, a soul gets called from the lifestream and then trapped in an aetherial construct. The Ancients discovered this idea in the Tales of the Shadows story.

[HeulGDarian]

I still remember the devs talking about the mechanics of primal summoning and that it involves drawing a soul from the lifestream. And there is support for that idea. With self-summoning, the summoner itself would be the soul of the primal, with external summoning, a soul gets called from the lifestream and then trapped in an aetherial construct. The Ancients discovered this idea in the Tales of the Shadows story.

"To be precise, it is not a living being, but magick woven in the likeness of a bird. One possessed of puissant healing powers. And as befits a masterwork of the Words of Lahabrea, it is a thing of beauty."

"I don’t doubt it. So what, then, is the problem?"

"As I said, it is not a living being. The concept proposed was a magick in avian guise. With this in mind..."

Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open...and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem─an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it─a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."


https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/
the link in case others want to see the rest the story is called through his eyes

[Kuroka]

Dont forget shiva was a special case as he soul never returned to the life stream, she still is with her lover...

[HeulGDarian]

Dont forget shiva was a special case as he soul never returned to the life stream, she still is with her lover...

i actually dont remember that but i will go check.

[Kuroka]

i actually dont remember that but i will go check.

I play on german so i cant tell you the exact words, but Hraesvlgr said smt about "if not for her souls soothing embrace, i would have went to war as well" and quite literally "you cant summon her as her soul still is with me..."

[Cilia]

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

You can't summon the same primal twice because primals are effectively ideas given physical form and function by their summoners. When you defeat a primal, it doesn't "die" as we understand it - it returns to the aetherial sea, where it waits to be called again. Ifrit, for instance; people still remember him, how he looked and acted, so as long as people remember "Ifrit" as a quadrupedal fire-breathing demon lizard, that's what you'll get when you summon him. Thus, the only way to truly kill a primal is to destroy the conceptual basis of their existence; that is, wipe out the idea that gives them form and function. (Thus the jokes about the PC having brain damage when their Eden Primals have vastly different appearances and abilities compared to the originals.)

The Allagans sealing the Warring Triad (and Bahamut) instead of killing them was a pragmatic move and not designed to stop them from being resummoned. They were interred with some of their followers in suspended animation specifically so they'd stay around as batteries for Azys Lla and Dalamud, respectively.

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

The Echo is a necessity for controlling primals. The only time a non-Echo user incarnate summoned was Thordan and Yotsuyu (as King Thordan and Tsukuyomi, respectively), and both times it costed them their lives. The thing to remember, though, is that these were all summoned individually, instead of as a group effort; and they are essentially their summoners' idea of what they'd be like as that figure. (Shinryu, being extant before Zenos reverse incarnate summoned himself into it, is exempt from this.) King Thordan isn't what the real King Thordan was like, but rather Archbishop Thordan VIIth's idea of what he'd be like.

The situation with Ryne is a bit complicated. As one of Minfilia's hosts as the Oracle of Light she does have the Echo... but that only prevents her from being tempered. It doesn't provide her with the ego necessary to overcome its will, leading to her personality being subsumed by the Shiva she summons into herself. (Why she's able to flip between Shiva Forme and Hydaelyn Forme is another mess.)

[Vyrerus]

I guess as far as summoning two versions of the same primal at once, we look to the SMN job and its Egis. The Egis look and behave like their bigger primal counterparts, so I think it's safe to say that you could summon a weaker version of a primal that you yourself control via the method SMN employs. It will just be weaker, since it depends upon your aether I guess?

And the whole Demi-Primal thing is kind of neat. It makes me think about the fact that the Ixali elder at the top of Xelphatol straight up summons Garuda temporarily for big AOEs, and also that the Ananta brood mother summoned Lakshmi for a moment upon seeing her daughter killed by Fordola's Skulls.

I guess I would also say that you could summon a primal that is supposed to be a specific primal, but if your idea/belief about it differs, then it would be similar in name and appearance, but actually just be a different primal entirely.

And I guess another thing to bring up, to fall in line with the arcanima line of thought is that the extreme modes of the Warring Triad are computer simulated reality that make theoretical maximum strength versions of the triad that are real aether/really capable of killing, as noted by the warning each tomestone gives you when you unlock those fights. Omega does a similar thing with his own animated aether constructs in that raid series. These constructs hav existed in tandem with their real counterparts, as the Warring Triad one demonstrates, they used it as an elite program.

[HeulGDarian]

I play on german so i cant tell you the exact words, but Hraesvlgr said smt about "if not for her souls soothing embrace, i would have went to war as well" and quite literally "you cant summon her as her soul still is with me..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHzq_qg4M_8

found it on youtube , shivas soul isnt with him. Ill copy the words of the english translation.
H: Do not speak her name , mortal!
Y: But speak it i must! I have summoned shivas soul from the beyond, and offered myself as her vessel! She has made her heart known to me!
H: Foolish girl. Thinkest thou my beloveds spirit hath descended from the heavens!?
H: That the secrets of her heart are thine to know!?
Y: I have surrendered mine to her! Do you not see, my love? I am Shiva reborn!
H: Gullible fool... The light but illuminated the past for thee, it did not grant thee omniscience
H: The spirit thou hast summon belongeth not to Shiva-'tis but a shade conjured by thine own fancy
H: In an age long past, mine own kin were guilty of like folly, beguiled by the dark ones' lies, they attempted to resurrect a king among wyrms-yet the divinity they called forth merely borrowed the semblance of my brood-brother.
H: Such gods are not summoned, but created. Phantoms spun from the threads of misplaced faith.
Y: Then the spirit that answered me.....-
H: .....was but thy dream of Shiva. Thy soul has been corrupted by a deity of thine own making, child.

[TheMightyMollusk]

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

Do I have this correct as per canon, or have I inferred sonething not explicitly stated in game?

Yotsuyu starts the Tsukuyomi fight in control. However, she loses it after the add phase, when the projection of Gosetsu protects her. It breaks her focus enough that the primal takes over ("From mortal husk, I rise anew!").

Thordan's summon wasn't intended to be channeling another entity; he was literally summoning himself as a god-king. It's kinda hard to say if he tempered himself to himself, and it's probably academic anyway.

Ryne has the Blessing of Light from Minfilia, so she's protected from tempering. She just wasn't mentally strong enough to control Shiva. Her perception being colored by the WoL's stories of Ysayle and Hraesvelgr probably didn't help.

[MrThinker]

Thordan's summon wasn't intended to be channeling another entity; he was literally summoning himself as a god-king. It's kinda hard to say if he tempered himself to himself, and it's probably academic anyway.

Uh, no it was definitely the King Thordan of legend and his knights twelve that the Archbishop summoned.