I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[tdb]

I don't think these people really exist.

I say this as a player who's static forced them to swap jobs for better kill times, I have some friends who really care about efficiency even more than I do but the only things I've heard them complain about in terms of DF tanks are baby pulls and no mitigation. If your uptime is great enough to hold threat whatever dps the group loses while you dodge is just so completely outclassed by everyone being able to properly AoE down full packs... anyone with a brain in their head won't care.

I'm not saying don't try to do better and improve your uptime on larger pulls but I don't see you catching much flak for having slightly lackluster damage as long as all the stuff is hitting you and you're full (or at the very least double) pulling.

The other day I had a tank in Anamnesis Anyder who at the last boss said "we stay for the run mechanic". I'm not sure what exactly that was about but I strongly suspect it was to increase uptime. Things got a bit confusing and me (healer) and at least one DPS ended up running anyway. The tank offered no comment whatsoever afterwards.

I can easily heal that fight through several vuln stacks, but for me part of the enjoyment of running dungeons is trying to run them perfectly - no vuln stacks taken, no deaths, and no buffs wasted because the boss was about to die when activating it. So you won't see me intentionally taking vuln stacks if I can avoid it.

I don't immediately recall any other times when someone has been worried about uptime in dungeons, so yeah, it's rare. But irrational anxieties are just that, irrational - they don't go away with reasoning.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The other day I had a tank in Anamnesis Anyder who at the last boss said "we stay for the run mechanic". I'm not sure what exactly that was about but I strongly suspect it was to increase uptime. Things got a bit confusing and me (healer) and at least one DPS ended up running anyway. The tank offered no comment whatsoever afterwards.

I can easily heal that fight through several vuln stacks, but for me part of the enjoyment of running dungeons is trying to run them perfectly - no vuln stacks taken, no deaths, and no buffs wasted because the boss was about to die when activating it. So you won't see me intentionally taking vuln stacks if I can avoid it.

I don't immediately recall any other times when someone has been worried about uptime in dungeons, so yeah, it's rare. But irrational anxieties are just that, irrational - they don't go away with reasoning.

Its common in that dungeon and the Cosmos one, with the tethers, to not run from the boss. The bosses do so little damage and the vuln stacks dont matter, so bosses die faster.

[Penthea]

Pulling extra mobs isn't inherently obstructive and is typically done because the person thinks the party is capable of handling the situation and it will increase the efficiency of the run. The intent isn't malicious, they're not doing it with the explicit purpose of harming someone else. Rather, that's what you're doing when you decide to wipe the party because you're upset.

You are literally trying to paint someone who goes out of their way to step out of their role due to their personal preferences and pulls extra mobs, as some kind of misunderstood combat guru who is merely making those around them fight at their full capabilities. But never really saying "they should at least warn people first". Because for some reason briefly stepping into the tank role means you get to be arrogant enough to make decisions for everyone without even giving them the smallest warning about it.

Is it really so difficult to say "please pull more" or "I will pull more"? Why does pulling extra packs of mobs give people a free pass to be arrogant?

And for the record, I'm not endorsing people pulling for the tank. I'm arguing against literal griefing being an acceptable response.

The thing about this situation is pulling puts players in combat which means no one can initiate a vote to kick, and if they don't stop pulling we cannot kick them. Even more difficult to find a moment to initiate a vote kick if they don't roll on loot. So sorry to burst your bubble but sometimes "griefing" is the only way out of being forced to deal with a player the group no longer wants in the party. Whether that's collectively choosing to do nothing and wait out the loot timers, or causing a wipe so combat ends.

Thankfully most players I come across do stop pulling when asked, but I met a handful who don't and the above happened.

It's okay to dislike people doing this. It's okay to express that you don't like people doing this. It is not okay to intentionally grief the entire party because you're upset about it. If you do everything you can to recover the pull, and you still wipe, ask the DPS to stop or just initiate a votekick. Wanting 'basic manners' is fine. Griefing because someone doesn't have them is not fine. There are ways to address the situation without risking your account.

First of all I never said I personally grief people who do something I dislike for whatever reason it is. I just said I'm not always against a wipe to teach someone a lesson. Does this mean I would have had to be the person initiating these wipes? No. the party is made up of four people and any of them can cause a wipe if they really want to.

Secondly:

I mostly play healers and I still see this happen. If the tank chooses to tank whatever extra was pulled by someone else then I'll heal it. If they don't then I won't...because in the past very often when I did heal the player that pulled the extra untanked pack I got aggro, ended up dying and then we wiped. Better off just letting that one person die. I can res them and we can continue. And before anyone says a tank who doesn't protect their healer is bad, I have seen people get hit really hard within a second of pulling an extra pack and if they don't get topped up often the next hit will just kill them. Not everyone who pulls extra packs knows how to kite and kiting isn't much help if the mobs have ranged abilities.

These are hardly the words of someone who makes a habit of intentionally griefing. I'm actually a pretty patient person when it comes to standard and quality of performance in normal mode. My post history is littered with me defending this stance, some of these posts in this thread. Like most players I follow the tank's lead. If they take on the extra pack, then I will too. Even if I know it is doomed to fail I will do my best. I try not to touch the extra pack if the tank doesn't because like most players...I don't want to die. Never mind how dying as a healer can quickly cause a wipe in that situation. But none of this means I actually agree with silently pulling when you're not a tank.

I am the sort of person who is strongly against griefing. I have kicked players from my fc who engaged in this behaviour. But if a person abuses the limitations of the vote kick system by keeping the party in combat and not rolling on loot, then they're not really giving the party much of a choice are they? In fact what they're doing is intentional griefing. If you give players only two choices: obey your demands or grief you back so they can be rid of you...well it's only your fault if they choose a decision you don't like.

[Alleluia]

Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.

If the healer decided to fold, I'd protect them. I'd even deal with the extra mobs the other player brought in without this hypothetical healer pulling aggro --- just after the stuff I was already dealing with was dead.

And sometimes, I fold and enable this behavior by just tanking the stuff anyway. It really depends on just how rude the person is being about it and how annoyed I am vs how much I want the dungeon to just be over. They're still wrong to do it, though.

I know I can handle most wall-to-wall pulls. I'll do them if I feel like it and/or people ask me. But that's now. I wasn't always good or confident enough in tanking to do that, and unsolicited prodding from other people about it could be mildly annoying. People taking it upon themselves to pull for me without asking was very annoying.

If its duty finder, you should live with pacing yourself to the lowest common denominator, the weakest link in the rando group chain. Cus that's what you are signing up for. Low skill can't throttle up, but high skill can throttle down. And should, even in dailies, if it becomes apparent that you have others who want to be slower than you in a party. You want to control the pace, your options are: 1) ask politely while being prepared for the answer to maybe be no, 2) queue as tank and check with your healer, 3) preform a party with other speed-minded individuals, 4) do trusts. "pull things in without asking cus the tank is going too slow" isn't really one of the above. You might get a group that won't complain, especially if it works, but you might also piss off your team and be left to fend for yourself and that's the risk you take trying to hotdog it. /shrug

justify single pulling throughout this thread.

That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage. If only half a wall-to-wall is all they want to do, they can also do that.

You don't like it, say so, get another group, or queue as tank yourself. Be the tank you want to see.

[Nestama]

The only way a tank can have trouble with wall to wall pulls is if their gear ilevel is too low for it (and they don't use AoE's at all, or their CD's), their Healer is a Cure bot and/or the DPS choose not to do AoE's for whatever reason. Otherwise doing wall to wall pulls is pretty easy as you just need to do an AoE (or two) and then dash off to the next pack and then cycle through CD's. If the pull is really big, use the invuln skill. You're never going to use it for bosses.

[LittleImp]

That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage. If only half a wall-to-wall is all they want to do, they can also do that.

You don't like it, say so, get another group, or queue as tank yourself. Be the tank you want to see.

I tank my roulettes 90% of the time. My experience doing so is exactly why I find it laughable that people are trying to justify single-pulling endgame instances.
The level of execution needed on the tanks part to do big pulls legitimately boils down to pressing 3 buttons. I choose to believe most people are capable of doing that.

I can't even think of the last time I was forced to single-pull in an endgame roulette. Happens in leveling dungeons sometimes though, and it's almost always because of low DPS in Holminster or Dohn Mehg >.>;

[Miracle_Diva]

Only recently got my first lvl 80 tank and honestly I don't even know why people would do small pulls. It makes no difference if it's 1 pack or 2 packs, you only need to press like 3 dps skills and make sure you use your defensive cooldowns one after another and things die quick if everyone is clicking their buttons. Mobs don't even do that much damage, you only waste everyone's cds if you pull small.

[Alleluia]

I tank my roulettes 90% of the time. My experience doing so is exactly why I find it laughable that people are trying to justify single-pulling endgame instances.
The level of execution needed on the tanks part to do big pulls legitimately boils down to pressing 3 buttons. I choose to believe most people are capable of doing that.

I can't even think of the last time I was forced to single-pull in an endgame roulette. Happens in leveling dungeons sometimes though, and it's almost always because of low DPS in Holminster or Dohn Mehg >.>;

Then, congrats. You aren't who I'm talking about when I say "That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage.". Other people are.

[phantomr23]

Then, congrats. You aren't who I'm talking about when I say "That's cus single pulling is justifiable, if that's what that player can manage.". Other people are.

What justifiable reasons would you say there are for being unable to press 2/3 AOE buttons and 1 cooldown every 20 or so seconds beyond the obvious severe disabilities?

[Alleluia]

What justifiable reasons would you say there are for being unable to press 2/3 AOE buttons and 1 cooldown every 20 or so seconds beyond the obvious severe disabilities?

I wasn't justifying not pressing AOE buttons. I was justifying pulling single packs. And the justification for single packs is "cus they want to".

As long as the dungeon gets cleared, it doesn't matter.