I am going to say something unpopular . . .

[Awha]

Some people are pretty justified in thinking a difference of opinion is a personal attack. In another thread you're active in I have seen people literally being told "if the healer or dps pulls for you that means you're a bad tank" without considering that sometimes players other than tanks can make bad decisions. Comments with a mentality like that appear as little other than an attempt to degrade someone's character just so they can feel superior. That is an attack.

You need to understand that while we are one community we are multifaceted to the point that it's more accurate to say that there are several distinct communities. Even when a difference of opinion is not intended to be or is taken as an attack, the hard truth is we as a whole will never agree on all the big issues players in this game face. Frankly the playerbase is too diverse to realistically hope that we can truly be unified as one community.

Sure sometimes people's opinions can change over time or can be convinced to change through conversation with another player, but sometimes no one's opinion is actually wrong. Sometimes the different methods of many players are perfectly legitimate, just happens that some are mislead or delusional enough to think that only their method is the correct one. And then the cycle of argument continues forever and ever and ever and ever...

I guess for me I take things at face value, so unless someone personally says or does something towards me with clear intent of it being an attack I will often just give them the benefit of the doubt. Overall I know many will not agree on much of anything, and as someone else pointed out I often live in a fantasy world, I do feel that we are players within the game itself can come together under one banner sure we may never agree with one another, but we can as a whole respect one another and not attack or belittle people for whatever reason.

When I started playing FFXIV as a tank and I ended up in groups that wanted to go fast and I was new to the dungeon I would often just leave because I did not want to slow down the group. I did not have to leave, no one told me to leave but I personally did not feel comfortable doing large pulls in dungeons I have never been in especially after level 50 since if I screwed up the timing on my invincibility skill I could have easily wiped the entire group trying to meet the standards of the group I knew I personally could not meet.

Just as now if I run into a group that overall wants to take it slow often times I leave as a tank. Sure I could honestly probably could survive large pulls even with a meh healer, but I know doing so would stress the group out so rather then force the entire group into a situation they would not be comfortable with I simply just leave and be on my way. Though I have been called a toxic or elitist tank for leaving groups, and I never understood the mindset of trying to hold everyone to the same standard. Some have the patience to put up with new plays or slow groups but for me it is not worth my time.

Overall this go backs to the mindset on both sides that try to force people to do things one may not enjoy, though my major issue is when people make comments like one should be more empathetic or understanding to a persons needs and consider them as a person behind the screen. I do think one can consider someone as a person behind the screen and not give a toss about what is going on in their life or their reasons for doing the things they do. Nor do I think that makes them a bad person for thinking like that.

Overall idk it just seems like the arguments come about because people seem to feel understanding and holding people to the same standards is one in the same. I do feel we are one community with sub groups within, but overall we are FFXIV players and if people came to terms with that and not get defense unless someone clearly is attacking them then things overall would be less of an issue with people. Also think people should be less afraid of removing players from groups.

Guess what I am trying to say, agreeing and understanding do not always go hand in hand. Though I am also the type of person that will not try to correct a player when they say things like using clem is not a dps loss (just as an example) sure on paper that is a wrong opinion, but who am I to judge what one persons truth is.

[Drkdays]

Run as a tank. Nobody gets away easily from rushing a tank. Listen to their teeth grind while you pull one pack at a time and wait for the healer's mana to regen between pulls.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Be it for whatever reason, respect one another across the board if the group wants to speed run and you do not feel okay with it request to be voted out of the group or leave on your own accord. Same if the group wants to take it slower do not needlessly put a player in a situation that makes them uncomfortable, but also as a player take steps to minimize that risk when possible.

Better yet, be flexible in pugs. If you have a specific desire from a group that you cannot deviate from- such as speed running everything, make a premade of like minded players. A random pug is just that- random, trying to force something on them is always going to create friction.

Also, consider the difference between two types of players. A player that want to mass pull everything and zoom is fully capable of going slower, they are able to do so without it being a problem. A player that wants to go more slowly quite possibly can't handle full trash pulls, and simply can't play at the level of having everything pulled. There's a difference between asking someone to do something they clearly can do, and asking someone to do something they might not be able to- and for many pugs are part of their learning experience, it's why they're not in premades yet they're still learning things. Mass pulling dungeons or doing certain boss mechanics isn't something you can really learn any way other than to do dungeons.

As for kicking people who have already waited in a queue because they don't meet your standards in a pug- I'm not really sure why you would expect anyone to be fine with that, whether they deserve it or not that's kind of a hard thing to just brush off.

[Ceridwenae]

It was a tad baiting..

Awha, consider your words much, much more wisely before you start a thread like this again, yeah? If you're having such a hard time explaining yourself, the least you could do is to get it all sorted out before you commit to the internet for posterity.

I too have disabilities, including photo-sensitive epilepsy and anxiety. If, as you say, you have stuff yourself, then you'll be aware of how we all deal with things differently. It's not a one size fits all. So someone may tell you they have anxiety because it helps to give them control over themselves and help them feel more confident in a run. It's a sign of progress if many people are able to talk about something that has been previously seen as taboo and it's healthy to talk about it as opposed to keeping it bottled up and making it worse. Of course, not everyone is comfortable yet with this stuff, and you certainly don't have to deal with it in your happy fun time, and it certainly doesn't mean you haven't run into people who are doing exactly what you say. What we don't do, however, is tar everyone with the same brush. This is not sensible.

You can leave an instance, as you say you do. Perhaps it's a poor look, but you at least seem to understand why your view is unpopular - so what's honestly wigging me is why on earth would you then go to the lengths of making a thread and singling anxiety out, and then go into ill-thought out reasons including your own disabilities? You must realise it looks like more than just a "tad baiting" - but using your own conditions as a crutch, to add insult to injury is just so... grr, Awha. Grr. Probably without meaning to, perhaps thoughtlessly, you have made me feel like people like me are not welcome in this game. Thankfully, I'm resilient enough to try to think kindly on you and even try to help you out a bit here.

It just seems a lot of what you're saying could be applied to yourself (generally speaking: we project the things we hate or strongly dislike about ourselves on to others; I am not saying you're doing that, because I don't know you and can only go on what you're writing and think you should perhaps bear it in mind if it makes even a smidge of sense to you). At the very least if you know running content with randoms is going to be a mixed bag at best, you have to accept a loss of power in some ways. You're signing up to the RNG of it. If you don't like the rug being swept out from under you, why not just make a group of like-minded individuals and run with them? You're not going to improve your own game play with people whose styles you don't like and don't want to adapt to. You'll be happier and not feeling the need to effectively dump on people who have anxiety or just aren't at the same standard of play you are.

For what it's worth, it seems like you just need to thoroughly examine why you feel this way and I hope you find peace with it if you haven't already. You're one of the posters I often enjoy reading, and even if I mostly don't agree with what you say, you've made me snort the tea out of my nose with laughter or more than one occasion, and I appreciate your perspective more often than not, so you keep on rocking. But maybe with a little more thought first, yeah?

[Awha]

I get what you are saying, though as I mentioned is it really wrong to not expect accommodations to be made by total strangers because one may have IRL factors that may impact how they play? This one one aspect of mental or physical disabilities I never understood. Sure it would be nice if people were understanding, but by no means should people expect others to be understanding especially in a space shared by many. It is RNG, though through ingame tools such as waiting 5 min and putting the issue up to a vote and seeing what the outcome is. I get for many talking about what limits them is hard if not impossible, and that is understandable but how can one expect strangers to understand if they do not know, though even if they do know by no means do they l honestly have to care.

As you say I could queue with friends to avoid it, but couldn't the same be said vice versa? As many have said sure I and many others could be more flexible, but I have seen it in group and I get crap for it because I fully do not understand why it is considered okay to expect people to treat me differently because I do not fit the standard mold? Sure things would be easier if I had that stance, and I get fair is not equal and putting everyone on a fair ground means being more accommodating towards others to make sure they a even ad possible playing field be it in life or a video game. Though it personally never sat well with me since at times it appears to be for many a one way street.

I admit I should not have soley used the word anxiety, though if I had used the gambit of mental or physical disabilities that may impact one's life outside their own control I am sure it would not end up very well. Since it mostly certainly never ends up well for me IRL. I get my notion of empathy leaves much to be desired, and my views are largely black and white. I do not understand nuances between things very well.

Long and short understanding one may have certain limitations does not necessarily mean they have accommodate said limitations. Guess that is what I was trying to say. I appreciate what you are saying since I will admit my understanding others is limited and largely I know I come from a place of privilege to a degree when it comes to how I deal with my own limitations, and I do function on a base black and white scale that is often jarring.

I get even what I am saying is hypocritical and absurd because I am using my own. limitations as a means to push a standard on others just not a standard most would feel comfortable with, while not 100% my intent thinking over it now I can see how it goes off that way. It is never my intent to belittle what others have gone though, and I get my view is jaded and does not put much respect towards fellow players be it on whatever camp they fall in. As you have mentioned my own experience fuels my outlook and my work harder not smarter approach either out of fear of being mocked or just plain stubbornness is not something many will get. As a person, I am often the first person to talk fault for my actions. I mean someone hit my car in a parking lot while it was parked and I was the one who apologized and felt bad because if my car was not in that spot the accident would have never happened. My static tells me all the time that I get stuck in my own head, if someone fails a mechanic within the static I am quick to apologize since I have always feel if I was better at preforming my role that mistake may not have happened or cost them their life. I largely do believe in we can only control our own actions, and too a fault that in certain situations it could even been seen as victim blaming. Warped sense of reality I have, I get it is a fantastical fantasy.

[Penthea]

I get what you are saying, though as I mentioned is it really wrong to not expect accommodations to be made by total strangers because one may have IRL factors that may impact how they play? This one one aspect of mental or physical disabilities I never understood.

Yes and no. It really depends on the situation.

If a person is so bad that they're a very clear detriment to the group, for example there are constant missed gcds that even without a parser you would notice, then yea people are perfectly within their right to refuse to play with that person regardless of the reason why. Very bad is very bad whether it's lag, dcing, not knowing how to play, being lazy or being disabled.

However if they made one or only a few mistakes throughout the instance, not much more than others would make, then I don't think it's fair to target someone whose infrequent mistakes are the result of a health issue. If a person is just being careless or being a bit lazy well they can simply try harder. That really isn't an option if health is getting in the way. Willpower isn't always enough to overcome a hurdle created by health be it physical or mental.

I have a disability and it can result in me not playing optimally. I remember once in ex roulette I got a huge sharp pain in my fingers at the worst time, it strongly distracted me so I didn't activate an ability on time and the tank died which resulted in a wipe. I didn't say why it happened to the group I simply said "sorry my bad, I was too slow" because I don't fancy talking about sensitive issues like that to strangers who may very well respond with "find people to play with who are okay with your disability instead of making us deal with it" or "you're lying, why can't you just admit you messed up?".

And before anyone accuses me of doing pugs when I know it's a bad day for my body, the truth is I don't. If it's a bad day I entirely avoid pugs and sometimes I just don't even log in. However my particular condition isn't completely predictable so sometimes my hands feel fine for the whole day but then some of my fingers can randomly twitch or be in a high degree of pain for just a second and it may not happen again for several hours. This doesn't sound like much but if it happens at a bad moment like in the above paragraph then the results can be quite bad for the group.

It would be nice if I could just be honest and say "sorry I have a disability and pain flared up for a second so it was super distracting but I'm okay now" instead of pretending that I messed up as a result of just not paying enough attention. But given how I'm often treated offline because of it, I don't want to grant those with the privilege of anonymity the opportunity to be horrible to me for just one mistake. I literally have to pretend that I'm a less attentive player than I actually am just to avoid harassment.

Yes there are people who use their disability as a crutch. I unfortunately met quite a few. One person used his disability as a crutch so much that he felt it gave him the right to be awful and unreasonably spiteful to people without any repercussions. But the truth is most of us don't use it as a crutch. More people in the world are disabled than we realise. A lot of disabilities are invisible even offline and in games it's impossible to tell if poor performance is the result of a disability or just someone not trying.

And this is partially why your thread has struck some distaste in me. Aside from my criticisms that it looks targeted for being too specific, you highlighted people with a real mental illness that can have literal debilitating physical affects on a person and proceeded to scold them. It may have not been your intention to target everyone with anxiety, but what your post does is tell people with anxiety that mistakes they make as a result of their health should not be forgiven. You may have been intending to speak only to those who use their disability as crutch in an unreasonable manner, but it did not come across this way at all.

And yes my raid team is aware of my disability and they're fine with it. I suppose it's obvious I'm not hiding it from them given I'm openly speaking about it here. But just in case there's some wiseguy who asks or accuses...yea, they know :P

[Awha]

Yes and no. It really depends on the situation. If a person is so bad that they're a very clear detriment to the group, for example there are constant missed gcds that even without a parser you would notice, then yea people are perfectly within their right to refuse to play with that person regardless of the reason why. Very bad is very bad whether it's lag, dcing, not knowing how to play, being lazy or being disabled.

However if they made one or only a few mistakes throughout the instance, not much more than others would make, then I don't think it's fair to target someone whose infrequent mistakes are the result of a health issue. If a person is just being careless or being a bit lazy well they can simply try harder. That really isn't an option if health is getting in the way. Willpower isn't always enough to overcome a hurdle created by health be it physical or mental.

I have a disability and it can result in me not playing optimally. I remember once in ex roulette I got a huge sharp pain in my fingers at the worst time, it strongly distracted me so I didn't activate an ability on time and the tank died which resulted in a wipe. I didn't say why it happened to the group I simply said "sorry my bad, I was too slow" because I don't fancy talking about sensitive issues like that to strangers who may very well respond with "find people to play with who are okay with your disability instead of making us deal with it" or "you're lying, why can't you just admit you messed up?".

And before anyone accuses me of doing pugs when I know it's a bad day for my body, the truth is I don't. If it's a bad day I entirely avoid pugs and sometimes I just don't even log in. However my particular condition isn't completely predictable so sometimes my hands feel fine for the whole day but then some of my fingers can randomly twitch or be in a high degree of pain for just a second and it may not happen again for several hours. This doesn't sound like much but if it happens at a bad moment like in the above paragraph then the results can be quite bad for the group.

It would be nice if I could just be honest and say "sorry I have a disability and pain flared up for a second so it was super distracting but I'm okay now" instead of pretending that I messed up as a result of just not paying enough attention. But given how I'm often treated offline because of it, I don't want to grant those with the privilege of anonymity the opportunity to be horrible to me for just one mistake. I literally have to pretend that I'm a less attentive player than I actually am just to avoid harassment.

Yes there are people who use their disability as a crutch. I unfortunately met quite a few. One person used his disability as a crutch so much that he felt it gave him the right to be awful and unreasonably spiteful to people without any repercussions. But the truth is most of us don't use it as a crutch. More people in the world are disabled than we realise. A lot of disabilities are invisible even offline and in games it's impossible to tell if poor performance is the result of a disability or just someone not trying.

And this is partially why your thread has struck some distaste in me. Aside from my criticisms that it looks targeted for being too specific, you highlighted people with a real mental illness that can have literal debilitating physical affects on a person and proceeded to scold them. It may have not been your intention to target everyone with anxiety, but what your post does is tell people with anxiety that mistakes they make as a result of their health should not be forgiven. You may have been intending to speak only to those who use their disability as crutch in an unreasonable manner, but it did not come across this way at all.

And yes my raid team is aware of my disability and they're fine with it. I suppose it's obvious I'm not hiding it from them given I'm openly speaking about it here. But just in case there's some wiseguy who asks or accuses...yea, they know :P

I agree largely with what you are saying, and I have gone through it myself it is not fun pretending to be something you are not that is why by in large when I run in to cases like this I often just opt to leave myself to avoid any unnecessary issues. Though if I queue with friends then I will admit I will remove the element that is slowing us down. You are right it was not my intent, but I do not think that people should take others removing someone from a group as means of punishment or scolding, If someone mentions it outright then by all means they should be reported, and one should blacklist them ASAP, but what I was trying to convoy was if someone removes someone from the group because they do not mess well with the group I do not think it should be taken personally. Since unless they state otherwise we are players are not privy to the reason behind the removal, so why jump the gun. Granted as I said I take mostly everything at face value so I often find myself in weird situations where things do go over my head, and as such at times what I say can been seen as problematic also considering the title it is understandable.

By in large I do mostly play with friends that understand my shortcomings causes by issues outside the game, though personally I had to leave a few raid groups because at times people would give me a pass due to those limitations and I personally never liked being treated that way which has caused me many issues cause as I mentioned before I often work harder and not smarter on many tasks out of sheer stubbornness. I do get for many it in a fine line to walk between understanding and being accommodating verse simply giving one a pass. By in large I am a fairly binary person, I tend to view the world and action in wide strokes, which can be problematic.

Please understand was not my intent to target one aspect, nor is it my intent to say people should berate others for things outside their control, nor do I feel willpower is enough to overcome some hurdles. Though I do feel if people run into those that are not willing to accommodate them even for a slight mistake I do not think they should take it personally. Everyone has different thresholds or value markers for certain situations that does not inherently mean they are doing it with malicious intent. Though if someone clearly shows malicious intent then that is a different story. Though I do not think most people care enough about the person to really harbor any ill will towards the person on a personal level. Trolls will be trolls, but those are often far and few between from my general experience. People are generally just wishing to play the game in the way they personally seem most enjoyable. Would it be easier if people just accepted RNG for what it was within the roulette and took what they got in stride? Yes most likely, but with features like vote kicking and the option to leave by large I do not blame, I encourage people to use them as a means of trying to improve their own personal experience.

[lolicon09]

Just Vote Kick anyone who doesn't want to do his/ her Job

[BlitzBreaker]

You seem to be confusing the word anxiety with the word nervous which is leading to friction. Nervousness is a reaction to a potentially scary situation. Anxiety and anxiety disorders have physical components that include panic attacks, digestive and neurological disorders. If you are suggesting it’s not your job to mentor nervous people than I can at least wrap my head around it. If you are saying you are happy to play the way you want until a fresh sprout tank with an anxiety disorder is left a shaking emotional mess afterwards than you need some serious help. Anxiety is a treatable disorder and it effects up to one in three adults at some point in their lives. Compassion you should have been taught as a child.

[Awha]

You seem to be confusing the word anxiety with the word nervous which is leading to friction. Nervousness is a reaction to a potentially scary situation. Anxiety and anxiety disorders have physical components that include panic attacks, digestive and neurological disorders. If you are suggesting it’s not your job to mentor nervous people than I can at least wrap my head around it. If you are saying you are happy to play the way you want until a fresh sprout tank with an anxiety disorder is left a shaking emotional mess afterwards than you need some serious help. Anxiety is a treatable disorder and it effects up to one in three adults at some point in their lives. Compassion you should have been taught as a child.

Nah I mean anxiety. I also suffer from anxiety, guess overall I just feel it is my beast to bare. Sure it is nice when people understand, and are accommodating, but in the end I do not expect people to understand or be accommodating since truth be told looking from the the perspective it is not their issue they have to deal with, it is mine. Not saying it us an ideal outlook, but in the end only actions we can control are our owns. If someone does not want to be accommodating I get why someone would take it personally especially if they are removed from the group or their pleas go ignored and people force them into uncomfortable situations. Overall I do not agree with putting people in uncomfortable situations per se I am okay with leaving a group one does not want to play with or removing someone from the group that does not mess well with said group.

While I do not agree with pulling for people to force them to speed I do get why people may do it and I do not blame the. directly when group wants to go fast and may view anothers real issues as a speed bump. I do think people are within their right to have that view, and I do think we should think ill of them.

In the end as others have said just vote kick the element one does not agree with. If it passes cool, if not leave. One should not be forced to endure something they do not enjoy no matter which side you fall on. That said I do not think people should use their role or the ease of an action to force people to do something they do not enjoy.

I get if I framed from the other side instead people might be more understanding as to what I am trying to say. I guess what I am trying to say my problems and limitations are my own and I do not expect others to understand nor even care since overall I am just a faceless stranger they probably do not care all that much about. Though I do not blame them because I also do not care much about people I do not personally know.