"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Doozer]

They are expected because the dungeons aren't really that hard and are straight forward. Also you have to take into account on how much time these people can play. Not everyone has time on their hands to take things slow.

If someone only has 15 minutes to play and not 20, then they shouldn't be doing dungeons with DF groups. If you're in such a rush that you have to do it really fast, the Party Finder is in the same menu, 24/7. With DF, you get what you get, and you can either leave or deal with it. And you can't actually expect random groups to be 100% efficient 100% of the time. You have to be ready for messy duties when you're grouping with strangers. Sometimes people mess up over and over, and sometimes the tank and/or healer can't be bothered to sprint through the dungeon.

Also, I can't help but notice it's always about tanks/healers that "can't" do big pulls. It's always implied that they're completely unable to. Never do people mention that sometimes they just don't want to. It's not a matter of skill or competency, sometimes they just don't enjoy that.

[Yeol]

As someone who's played since the beginning of this iteration of the game, big pulls have not always been the standard. They're certainly not my standard. Back then it was only in dungeons like Brayflox Hard, when it was the best way to farm tomes, so naturally people wanted to go fast. Because people always want to go super fast for some reason.

You answered it yourself. Fater farm = faster leveling. Same concept.
It certainly became the standard since HW.

[Skivvy]

You answered it yourself. Fater farm = faster leveling.
It certainly became the standard since HW.

I'd say this went back to ARR launch. Amdapor Keep & Wanderer's Palace spam was definitely a thing, and big pulls were quite common.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I'd say this went back to ARR launch. Amdapor Keep & Wanderer's Palace spam was definitely a thing, and big pulls were quite common.

Yup, I was pulling almost the whole last corridor in AK back then.

And tons of stuff in wp.

[Vahlnir]

For me i don't care. Usually most duty finder groups i get into pull everything. Very little do i get groups that do pulls 1 by 1. I don't mind them.

Yeah. I don't really care too much about the speed, so long as it isn't taking us down to 20-30 minutes left on the dungeon timer. Even pulling one trash pack at a time just about every dungeon won't take anywhere near that long. Whenever I enter a dungeon, unless the healer is obviously outleveling or outgearing the content they are in I will take it slow at first to get a general feel for their capabilities. After a pull or 2 I will either stay the course or ramp up my game. Had issues with leveling roulette the last couple of days though. One was in DD. The healer seemed to be fully capable of handling large pulls (I pulled the entire last room before the first boss, and apparently 2 stray mobs ate the healer's face for a minute, sorry healer!) and they were fine, despite appearing to be very new to the role or the game. Tried to pull the entire middle group of mobs in the next room and died almost instantly from a lack of heals. Took it easy after that. Not a big deal, but they were somewhat inconsistent. Yesterday was a Mt. Gulg run. The healer was fine, but the dps was not. Large pulls were just a little too hectic because one dps was 79 and was still wearing some lvl 70 dungeon gear. The other wasn't all that great either, despite being geared well enough. Had to take it relatively slow there as well. Again, not a huge deal, but it could have taken less time had everyone known their stuff and had been sufficiently geared. I suppose what might seem like a no brainer to me might be a foreign language to others.

[Nestama]

As someone who's played since the beginning of this iteration of the game, big pulls have not always been the standard. They're certainly not my standard. Back then it was only in dungeons like Brayflox Hard, when it was the best way to farm tomes, so naturally people wanted to go fast. Because people always want to go super fast for some reason.

Not sure why breakneck speeds are so expected now. In the Duty Finder you're supposed to get what you get. I'm not sure why there's this weird imposed Way Of Doing Things now. Get your own group if you want to steer when you're not the tank. And whatever speed the tank goes at says nothing about their skill level. Some people just don't feel like it, and trying to make them do anything else is what's toxic. As long as they're actually tanking, using their skills, etc., who cares how fast they go.

Its definitely been the norm since around when ARR came out (maybe two months before 2.1's release?). I remember farming Wanderer's Palace for Philosophy tomes back in 2013 and the party would usually consist of a PLD, WHM, BLM and BRD (RIP Foe's). Praetorium was another dungeon people would speed run through, but they usually excluded PS3 players (loading time reasons). Heck, I also remember some big pulls during Haukke Manor Hard (final pull was a little painful because the gargoyle actually really hurt).

The only dungeon I can think of that was never mass pulled was Pharos Sirius in 2.1 (though if you ever got that in Roulette, people would usually immediately leave because that dungeon aggressively demanded players to know what they should be doing) and that's mainly because the trash mobs actually had some pretty nasty skills in their arsenal (to the point where in SE's Pharos nerf, they also removed some trash mobs).

Anyway: if you have DPS who know what they're doing and a healer who isn't afraid to DPS, then the tank absolutely should be doing big pulls.

[Doozer]

Anyway: if you have DPS who know what they're doing and a healer who isn't afraid to DPS, then the tank absolutely should be doing big pulls.

I think the tank can do whatever kind of pulls they want. If someone wants to decide the pulls, they can queue as a tank. There's no "should" about it. If you want to race through a dungeon to get tomes or whatever, set up a PF. Otherwise, accept whatever you get in DF. Period.

[EtherRose]

If someone only has 15 minutes to play and not 20, then they shouldn't be doing dungeons with DF groups. If you're in such a rush that you have to do it really fast, the Party Finder is in the same menu, 24/7. With DF, you get what you get, and you can either leave or deal with it. And you can't actually expect random groups to be 100% efficient 100% of the time. You have to be ready for messy duties when you're grouping with strangers. Sometimes people mess up over and over, and sometimes the tank and/or healer can't be bothered to sprint through the dungeon.

Also, I can't help but notice it's always about tanks/healers that "can't" do big pulls. It's always implied that they're completely unable to. Never do people mention that sometimes they just don't want to. It's not a matter of skill or competency, sometimes they just don't enjoy that.

Iv'e never met anyone who simply didn't "Want" to not pull everything. I assume these people that don't "Want" to because they don't "Enjoy" it are a very few. As for people with time short on their hands, the average run takes 25mins. And like i said, these dungeons are so straight forward and easy iv'e yet to find a party in DF that has trouble.

For a second take on your statement regarding people not "Wanting" to pull everything despite them actually being able to, is kinda spiteful and toxic in itself(Partially). You have the ability to make the run faster/easier so everybody can go about their business but you decide not to because you rather pull every group 1 by 1 because apparently that is more fun than doing big pulls and mowing everything down from what i gathered from your statement?

Now, you can play anyway you want as you desire. However, if i have the ability to make the run smoother/faster and easier for my party so we can go about our business, i'm going to do it because i'm not selfish. And yes DF is random, you do get what you get but people should have some decency.

[Vahlnir]

I think the tank can do whatever kind of pulls they want. If someone wants to decide the pulls, they can queue as a tank. There's no "should" about it. If you want to race through a dungeon to get tomes or whatever, set up a PF. Otherwise, accept whatever you get in DF. Period.

It is generally expected that the tank does large pulls nowadays. However, healers and tanks have the final say in the matter. This was in full effect the a few days during a Sohm Al run I went through. The healer was a bit slow to catch up with the group, but the dps was solid. Can't go anywhere without your healer though, so I waited. On more than one occasion the MCH of the group pulled. The first time was some extra trash, the next was the first boss. Picked up the extra trash but I let them keep the boss for a solid 5 seconds, which resulted in them and their fellow dps being cleaved and nearly killed. I took it away then hoping I got my point across. A few pulls and a boss later they attempted to pull a trash pack with the healer still absent and catching up to the group. The same strategy was applied there. They waited for the healer on the last boss. I'd like to think they learned something, anyway. Either way, tanks and healers are the ones who hold the lives of their parties in their hands. It is best to let them set the pace, even if the pace isn't to one's liking.

[Doozer]

You have the ability to make the run faster/easier so everybody can go about their business but you decide not to because you rather pull every group 1 by 1 because apparently that is more fun than doing big pulls and mowing everything down from what i gathered from your statement?

I'm not arguing with someone keen on strawman arguments, sorry. Save it for someone else.