"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[JohnSpawnVFX]

So you think if someone is learning something at a location then that must be the only location they intend to use what they learned?

Does this mean that if I study programming in university that I intend to only ever do programming in a university? That I would not and cannot bring that knowledge elsewhere?

You have some funny ideas about A LOT of things.

Which high end content requires you to pull 2+ packs of monsters repeatedly?

Also "I don't want to leave my comfort zone" =/= "I'm still learning"
Give a rest to the damn learning excuse. People aren't eternally learning the same dungeon over and over.

So which is it? You're engaging in some double-think here, Lucy.

I'm sure that if the group can handle it, the game is going to hijack control of the tank and force them to do the pull.
It's not like you still have to make the pull, if the group can handle it or anything /s

I see the weird mental gymnastics for defending laziness and inept gameplay have returned...

[Vyrerus]

I see the weird mental gymnastics for defending laziness and inept gameplay have returned...

I mean, they never left?

That's not what this is about though. There isn't very often an objective technique for success given the mercurial nature of players themselves. You adapt as much as the game and other players allow, and as long as it leads to a clear, then it's successful. Beyond that it's just an efficiency vs. entertainment factor. That's why different strategies pop up for almost everything, and also why crazy challenge runs like, "Defeat Alte Roite with no deaths, and with everyone in the entire party being hit by every Clamp in the entire fight." exist.

For a lot of MMO players, efficiency is entertainment in and of itself. For all the rest it's unimportant.

[Penthea]

Which high end content requires you to pull 2+ packs of monsters repeatedly?

If you think tanking is literally just pulling and nothing else you're going to get a nasty surprise if you ever tank.

Tanks can learn how to use cds, get a feel for what ones are better for certain situations and practice their rotations in a dungeon. Also in dungeons unexpected things can happen frequently due to the nature of how trash packs work so they can be good training for handling a bad situation and how to remain calm when it does happen. Never mind how dungeons teach fundamentals like dodging mechanics, and learning how to do that without compromising your class performance is a skill itself which is essential for harder content.

And before you say "but dungeons are all aoe" I'm going to remind you that bosses exist and they rarely require aoe dps.

It's kind of bloody ridiculous that this conversation is even happening. Somehow some people do not understand that you can learn and practice how to play your class in dungeons as preparation for harder content? What?

Yes 8 man content has different demands to dungeons but they're not so different from each other that there is no overlap in what combat demands from players.

Give a rest to the damn learning excuse. People aren't eternally learning the same dungeon over and over.

I guess you forgot that things like new players, returning players and players trying new classes/roles actually exist.

[Kolsykol]

The group isn't even setting the pace if one DPS is just rushing ahead of everyone else.
The group isn't initially setting the pace either when the Tank is pulling.

One person controls the pace and that should be the Tank imo, it's what makes the most sense and is the safest and should really be part of their job identity.
And then that pace has to be adapted to the group, and that's also a part of the Tanks job.
The DPS can contribute to the pace by dealing more damage, that's their job and so can the Healer.
Like what I argued was literally all about group pacing but I got mocked for it and for some reason it was apparently all my fault even tho it was the DPS trying to set an unreasonable and impossible to keep up with pace for anyone who doesn't have teleports etc.
Why is it okay for a single DPS in a group to set the pace on behalf of everyone else but it's not okay for the Tank?
Even with the Tank I still don't actually think that it's solely on the Tank, it IS a group thing because it's an MMO and you're playing with other people. But it's the Tanks job to read what's happening and adapt the pace and it's other peoples job to contribute to it by killing things fast.

I dunno why Tanks and Healers are now taking so much flack but then DPS just gets free reign to do whatever they want and if the Tank or Healer isn't playing at the same pace then they're at fault.
If Tanks aren't that special then why are the DPS or even just a single person in a group?

Like for all of this talk about ego etc this doesn't sound like a Tank ego problem at all to me, quite the opposite.
It's like if you're running a Marathon specifically with your friends and the purpose is to complete it together, but then one person who is way faster and has much more Stamina just starts running at full speed ahead of everyone else and complains that the others can't keep up.
You're kinda just being a jerk at that point.

I mean, they never left?

That's not what this is about though. There isn't very often an objective technique for success given the mercurial nature of players themselves. You adapt as much as the game and other players allow, and as long as it leads to a clear, then it's successful. Beyond that it's just an efficiency vs. entertainment factor. That's why different strategies pop up for almost everything, and also why crazy challenge runs like, "Defeat Alte Roite with no deaths, and with everyone in the entire party being hit by every Clamp in the entire fight." exist.

For a lot of MMO players, efficiency is entertainment in and of itself. For all the rest it's unimportant.

It doesn't even have to be '' laziness '', not everyone is capable of playing at the same level for various of different reasons.
It's also really annoying how these high expectations are mainly just put on the Tank even tho the Tank is supposedly not special.

[Deceptus]

In casual content, no lol. Literally the only current casual content where a wipe can be caused by a *single* mistake is if you do the big pull before the final boss on Anyder (which you should always do) and you have a WHM that, somehow, fails to Bene the tank before their invuln cooldown wears off. I don't know how you could actually fail to do that since you have a minimum of 8 seconds to do so, but I guess some people really are that slow if the amount of Cure 1 spamming WHMs at level 70/80 I've seen lately are anything to judge by.

I've tanked that pull many times and the number of times the group has wiped is relatively high. That's kinda what people are talking about here saying the general FFXIV playerbase needs to improve.

This is despite me using ever CD I have including immunity, healing myself with clemency etc.

WHM's refusing to use Holy to mitigate the 20 mobs damage, Ranged DPS refusing to use their AOE limit breaks (Perfect time for them).

Anectdotal yes but I was recently healing Cosmos and everyone in the party but me was gaining vuln stacks. They were completely ignoring the mechanics. I mentioned it and was literally responded with "Welcome to endgame bro".

[Yeol]

Back in the day, the best way to level was to spam dungeons.

Anyone who leveled tank/healer will be 'pushed' to try big pulls. At first they panic etc.. but soon it becomes the norm.
Big pulls are not as bad as people think. They simply need to try it more often to get the feeling of it.

Tanks who level via dungeon spam learn how to use their defensive kit effectively.
Healers learn when to cast heals and when to rely on oGCDs + they learn to when to heal and when to dps.

Sadly, after potd/hoh and recently trust, a lot of people do not get to level by spamming dungeons. So they don't get to experience the standard big pulls.

[Doozer]

So they don't get to experience the standard big pulls.

As someone who's played since the beginning of this iteration of the game, big pulls have not always been the standard. They're certainly not my standard. Back then it was only in dungeons like Brayflox Hard, when it was the best way to farm tomes, so naturally people wanted to go fast. Because people always want to go super fast for some reason.

Not sure why breakneck speeds are so expected now. In the Duty Finder you're supposed to get what you get. I'm not sure why there's this weird imposed Way Of Doing Things now. Get your own group if you want to steer when you're not the tank. And whatever speed the tank goes at says nothing about their skill level. Some people just don't feel like it, and trying to make them do anything else is what's toxic. As long as they're actually tanking, using their skills, etc., who cares how fast they go.

[odintius]

I generally don't care, I chose to enter with a random group of players that comes with different types of people skill level. If the tank doesn't pull large packs etc in low end content not the end of the world for me.

If it did I would use the party finder option with the intent of speedrun and would be in my right to kick someone because they chose to enter knowing the rules that were layed out at the beginning.

/Shrug at end of the day people going to play how they want no matter how much people complain about it. Use the pf more often if this is such a problem or help by starting more learning party's and teach the ropes for people who might care!

[Kolsykol]

I generally don't care, I chose to enter with a random group of players that comes with different types of people skill level. If the tank doesn't pull large packs etc in low end content not the end of the world for me.

If it did I would use the party finder option with the intent of speedrun and would be in my right to kick someone because they chose to enter knowing the rules that were layed out at the beginning.

/Shrug at end of the day people going to play how they want no matter how much people complain about it. Use the pf more often if this is such a problem or help by starting more learning party's and teach the ropes for people who might care!

How dare you use common sense?
We don't take kindly to that round dem here parts!

[EtherRose]

As someone who's played since the beginning of this iteration of the game, big pulls have not always been the standard. They're certainly not my standard. Back then it was only in dungeons like Brayflox Hard, when it was the best way to farm tomes, so naturally people wanted to go fast. Because people always want to go super fast for some reason.

Not sure why breakneck speeds are so expected now. In the Duty Finder you're supposed to get what you get. I'm not sure why there's this weird imposed Way Of Doing Things now. Get your own group if you want to steer when you're not the tank. And whatever speed the tank goes at says nothing about their skill level. Some people just don't feel like it, and trying to make them do anything else is what's toxic. As long as they're actually tanking, using their skills, etc., who cares how fast they go.

They are expected because the dungeons aren't really that hard and are straight forward. Also you have to take into account on how much time these people can play. Not everyone has time on their hands to take things slow. And it's not toxic at all in asking the tank to do big pulls. If the tank/healer are able to do big pulls, why not. If they can't, then simply say you can't. If the individuals complain because you can't do big pulls and berate you THEN it's toxic. But simply asking, isn't.

For me i don't care. Usually most duty finder groups i get into pull everything. Very little do i get groups that do pulls 1 by 1. I don't mind them.