"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Kolsykol]

If you can't handle a DPS pulling something 1 second before you do as a tank then you're far too fragile to be playing an online game. You can rip aggro from non-tanks with an auto attack or two nowadays. There's absolutely zero excuse for whining about how "wah a DPS pulled", or the classic "yOu pUlL iT yOu tAnK iT" nonsense. To be frank, tanks and healers in this game often have gigantic egos and think and think that they're infinitely more important than DPS. As a tank who actually understands how the game works, any content below EX/savage/ultimate you should be instantly pulling things the moment you can, barring an extreme case like someone is DC'd (and even then if it's a dungeon boss and you're a WAR with a DC'd healer, pull it regardless. You don't need a healer for bosses). If that means that the DPS hits the boss 0.7 seconds before you do as a tank, big whoop. This is especially true for certain jobs that may have buffs about to fall off depending on how long the run between the last trash pack and the boss took (eg. SAM, BRD, DNC, RDM).

Well, I did say that people would assume things about my tanking.
I wasn't even talking about people hitting the boss the very moment before I am about to connect, I am talking about people who are using every tool at their disposal to do it before everyone including me is even there.
Also, I've played Monk and BLM as my mains since the game first came out I know about buffs and all that especially in older dungeons and previous expansions you don't need to explain this to me.
Even way before it became easier for us to keep up our buffs tho I somehow still managed to not do this stuff.
As a Tank it's also your job to make sure that everyone is there and ready, it's not about being bad at the game or '' crying '' as you're implying...

It's not about having a fragile ego either, it's about people going to extreme lengths to make sure to do it.
You seem far more '' triggered '' about what I said than I am too, I never said or implied that I am like fuming with complete hatred at people doing it I said that it was annoying.
If I am already moving as fast as I can or if the healer is afk or not comfortable or good enough to handle big pulls and a Ninja is literally teleporting ahead of me, sprinting and then throwing daggers then yeah I am going to be annoyed by it.

I am not even a main tank player, I mainly play BLM and MNK and I prefer to heal over tanking.
But I still move fast and pull pack to pack without pause.
It's a bit funny that you talk about ego problems but then you're all like '' as a tank who actually understands how the game works '' and get up on some high horse about it.

Unless that DPS pulling more mobs leads to you dying because you can't handle that many, no, no it absolutely isn't. If a DPS or the healer pulls more mobs and you survive it just fine that means that you are failing your job as a tank because you should have pulled those mobs before the DPs had an opportunity to do so.

You're not even listening to what I am saying, and there are jobs in this game that have better mobility than any tank has.
You're like not giving me any benefit of the doubt at all as a tank either you're just jumping to the conclusion that it's all my fault and then give the DPS all the benefit of the doubt in the world.

That poster didn't say that he couldn't handle it, they say they didn't like it when DPS charges forward and get aggro, which is a fair position to think if you are playing tank.

This is a thread where people are being told that they are expected to do their job role properly, and a DPS that charges forward and leaving the tanks behind are not doing their job role properly.

Yes it may only for "1 second" and yes a Tank can steal the aggro back but still any DPS that does that often is annoying and by saying "Not a big deal" to that kind of thing, you are actually promoting people to play their role the wrong way, or in a way that selfishly pushing their way into others playing in the same group, something that I thought is a big no-no in this thread, especially coming from a player like you who claimed that you are above the vast majority of other players in this game.

Someone who gets it, a bit of faith in humanity restored lol.

[Penthea]

Unless that DPS pulling more mobs leads to you dying because you can't handle that many, no, no it absolutely isn't. If a DPS or the healer pulls more mobs and you survive it just fine that means that you are failing your job as a tank because you should have pulled those mobs before the DPs had an opportunity to do so.

Players with this mentality are part of why I refuse to tank. This doesn't happen just when tanks are slow or are doing one pack pulls. I have seen healers and dps silently pull an additional pack even if the tank already pulled two. And then some have the cheek to get incredibly irritated when it doesn't go well, even though they're the ones who put the party in that position without any warning.

I recall an awful situation in which a dps pulled an extra pack on top of the two the tank pulled and we wiped. The healer had not healed in several months so they were very rusty and the tank had already used quite a lot of their cds on the previous pull. The dps's response to the explanation was "learn to play better before you do DF" and I really wonder where they expect people to learn or relearn how to play. Doing trials doesn't teach much about dungeons, guildhests are only for low lvl content and smashing a dummy teaches you absolutely nothing about tanking or healing with large packs of mobs.

Crap like this is part of why tank and healer anxiety is so common.

[Vyrerus]

In regards to Tanks and Healers being more important than DPS... Yes, they completely are. It's not just because less people play them, it's because, one or the other is required for duty completion, usually.

Healers innately are the most powerful job in the game, from a control of the outcome of the fight perspective. Particularly shield healers. Tanks come second because 2/4 tanks just don't offer enough in the way of keeping the party up/restoring party member HP to reliably control the outcome of fights. DPS are the least powerful, in that, no matter how good your DPS are, they will not be able to counter or contend with too many raidwides/TBs etc. keeping the first two roles necessary.

Obviously, for lower tier content, you can finaggle a DPSx4 or in some cases x8 and still pull through decently, but on the conceptual level when fights are new or are in the high tier, there's just no DPS alive that will literally be able to carry the group to an enrage timer. Utility based DPS like RDM and SMN may very well lend a great hand in getting healers back up after failed mechanics, or by getting DPS up more quickly to pass mid-fight DPS checks, but not every group has players in those jobs skillful enough/lucky enough to pull that off. Whereas every group has to have healers and tanks to pull anything off.

Your average DPS player is very poor at their job, and they get carried through things, even up to the savage level. For every Savage static, there is generally 1 or 2 DPS within the static who are just good enough to not fail mechanics and not cause the group as a whole to fail the checks. Any time lag or a misstep happens to the better players, these players cannot pull the group forward. Being a really good DPS might mean that your group will be able to pass checks with a DPS or two down. Except at launch, generally Extremes and early Savages are lenient enough for this, depending on which DPS are in the hands of the better players.

Your average healer or tank has a base line at which they must always perform, though their role duty is considered extracurricular by the playerbase, it is actually a priority responsibility, regardless of how simple it may be. If this baseline responsibility is not met, then fights do not progress, regardless of how good the DPS may be. These baseline responsibilities are not hard to meet, and in intended comps, there is always a back-up player to carry a lesser player across the baseline threshold, particularly for healers.

This is why there are many mediocre healers that get through Savage. The baseline is being met by their co-healer, and they are just aiding and abetting lackluster DPS while not actually performing well in their own role. Tanks can be instructed/commanded through voice chat on when to swap and use cooldowns, and this is a pretty common thing. Over the years, I've actually noticed that tank mains are kinda dumb on average (yes, myself included).

Despite all three roles being able to be carried through content, healers and tanks are less portable. Finding a healer or tank that will at least listen or complete what their co-healer/tank can't manage on their own can be pretty rough, depending on what your group is looking for. I know in my raid groups, back when I was raiding, we always had trouble retaining healers in every single raid tier since Midas Savage. DPS on the other hand are numerous and far less pivotal. I've lost count of the times we've been able to bring a PUG DPS when someone couldn't make it, and then had no issues at all, and even sometimes had a better raid day because of it.

Of course, the ego thing mentioned also factors into this as well, and it's driven by the truth that, yes, Tanks and Healers are more pivotal than DPS. While also being harder to come by. In this case, the reason you might not tolerate even a good healer or tank is their ego. I've also lost count of the times my old raid leader kicked a PUG healer or tank to the curb, because they insisted on a, "better way." Translation: The only way they've ever done the fight, cause not a lot of people adapt to different strats easily.

Yet, there are just as many times where we've tolerated and even made allowances for some conceited PUG tank/healer because it meant the difference between running or not for the week/day.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Crap like this is part of why tank and healer anxiety is so common.

Tank/healer anxiety is nothing more than a myth. It's simply people being 'scared' of absolutely nothing at all. What the reality of the situation is, is that they're afraid that unlike on DPS, on tank/healer someone will actually SEE their screw up and call them out on it. It isn't that they're afraid of tanking or healing, it's that they're afraid of being people knowing they screwed up.

[KarstenS]

A lot of it depends on when you got that grey parse.

Read what I quoted again

He wrote "a full party of grey parses".

That means not on or two are grey. That means all eight are grey.

You won't beat any current savage or any ultimate with a party of eight grey parse players.

[LaughingBanana]

Unless that DPS pulling more mobs leads to you dying because you can't handle that many, no, no it absolutely isn't. If a DPS or the healer pulls more mobs and you survive it just fine that means that you are failing your job as a tank because you should have pulled those mobs before the DPs had an opportunity to do so.

You are not being inconsiderate to others playing in the group if you do this. Tanks and Healers set the pace of the content/dungeon runs, this is why people often advise whenever possible for tank and healer to communicate, like "Are you okay with big pulls?" before setting off, especially if one of them are new / rusty / still trying to acclimate themselves to high-level content.

Will it kill any player to let the group handle 6 aggros instead of just 9, for example? Are people really that impatient that they need to dictate the pace of three other people simply because they want to? Maybe the tank/player/healer is still trying to find a pace that they can comfortably run with?

Gosh, why does the first thing that pops in your mind in a situation like this is "Geez these guys SUCK and let ME do MY stuff" instead of "Okay, let's just go with the pace of the group". Is it really that hard to be considerate to other people? Is it really THAT important to cut that extra 2 or 3 minutes because the tank pulls 6 instead of 9 or 12?

I honestly just don't get it.

Tank/healer anxiety is nothing more than a myth. It's simply people being 'scared' of absolutely nothing at all. What the reality of the situation is, is that they're afraid that unlike on DPS, on tank/healer someone will actually SEE their screw up and call them out on it. It isn't that they're afraid of tanking or healing, it's that they're afraid of being people knowing they screwed up.

And that is called anxiety, afraid of committing mistakes and others chiding you for it. That's....... what anxiety is....

[Lucy_Pyre]

Tanks and Healers set the pace of the content/dungeon runs

Completely and utterly wrong. The pace is set by the entire party as a whole. Just because your party icon is blue or green doesn't make you special. If your DPS are trash then the tank can't pull large for the entire dungeon as they'll need a smaller pull every 2nd or 3rd pull to let their cooldowns come back, thus slowing the pace of the dungeon. And if we're talking about actual content (EX/savage/ultimate) you're flat out fail to clear if your DPS are garbage. Frankly, this whole "tank/healer set the pace" nonsense is just perpetuated by tanks/healers with ego problems.

[Penthea]

Tank/healer anxiety is nothing more than a myth. It's simply people being 'scared' of absolutely nothing at all. What the reality of the situation is, is that they're afraid that unlike on DPS, on tank/healer someone will actually SEE their screw up and call them out on it. It isn't that they're afraid of tanking or healing, it's that they're afraid of being people knowing they screwed up.

Not as simple as that. Not at all.

If a dps makes one mistake with their abilities it very rarely causes a death or a wipe. However if a tank or healer mess up even just once that can quickly lead to death or a wipe. That can be a lot of pressure. I've seen many wipes because a tank or healer was too slow to press a button or misjudged what was needed for the situation.

Healers and tanks very heavily rely on each other to play well. I've had some dungeon runs be wildly different despite being the same content simply due to the skill of the tank. I've had some tanks who made healing a breeze and others make it a nightmare. With dps...well regardless of how bad the rest of the party is you're still just doing your rotation. Your rotation doesn't increase in difficulty because the other dps sucks. At most you end up using some ogcds to survive, and maybe kite if things go really really badly. Tank and healer roles quite literally become more difficult to do if one of them is not very good.

That is partially why bad dps players are fairly common. In dungeons it is rarely super obvious if they're doing something wrong unless they're horrifically bad or you have a parser, which most people don't. It's especially even less obvious if the other dps is such a good player that one of them not being very good matters little. In dungeons there isn't a second tank or healer to carry a less skilled tank or healer. Because of this it tends to be very quickly obvious if the tank or healer are not good players. This can make the learning phase for those two roles quite stressful.

This is not to say dps is an easier role. It's just different. Dps get pressure in different places, namely savage because the demand for big numbers is often very high. Because of how important dps is in that content the pressure on them is absolutely constant as long as there is something to hit. Whereas for healers and tanks the pressure is on and off depending on what mechanics are happening.

[LaughingBanana]

Completely and utterly wrong. The pace is set by the entire party as a whole. Just because your party icon is blue or green doesn't make you special. If your DPS are trash then the tank can't pull large for the entire dungeon as they'll need a smaller pull every 2nd or 3rd pull to let their cooldowns come back, thus slowing the pace of the dungeon. And if we're talking about actual content (EX/savage/ultimate) you're flat out fail to clear if your DPS are garbage. Frankly, this whole "tank/healer set the pace" nonsense is just perpetuated by tanks/healers with ego problems.

I didn't say it to make it feel like I'm "special" when playing as Tanks or Healers. This discussion began when you say it's okay for DPS to move forward to get aggro without waiting for the tank and I still contend that a DPS who decides to that on their own without confirming with the rest of the group is being utterly inconsiderate to the other three in the team. Because that player is forcing a situation to other players in the team who might not be comfortable of playing through the dungeons doing massive pulls, which is just fine. You're not here to dictate others to following your pace.

Like I said, would it kill you if the group handles 6 aggros at a time instead of 9 or 12? Is it that hard to just go with the pace the group is comfortable with and go along with that?

[Lucy_Pyre]

If a dps makes one mistake with their abilities it very rarely causes a death or a wipe. However if a tank or healer mess up even just once that can quickly lead to death or a wipe.

In casual content, no lol. Literally the only current casual content where a wipe can be caused by a *single* mistake is if you do the big pull before the final boss on Anyder (which you should always do) and you have a WHM that, somehow, fails to Bene the tank before their invuln cooldown wears off. I don't know how you could actually fail to do that since you have a minimum of 8 seconds to do so, but I guess some people really are that slow if the amount of Cure 1 spamming WHMs at level 70/80 I've seen lately are anything to judge by.