"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Lucy_Pyre]

which is a fair position to think if you are playing tank.

Unless that DPS pulling more mobs leads to you dying because you can't handle that many, no, no it absolutely isn't. If a DPS or the healer pulls more mobs and you survive it just fine that means that you are failing your job as a tank because you should have pulled those mobs before the DPs had an opportunity to do so.

[Penthea]

Unless that DPS pulling more mobs leads to you dying because you can't handle that many, no, no it absolutely isn't. If a DPS or the healer pulls more mobs and you survive it just fine that means that you are failing your job as a tank because you should have pulled those mobs before the DPs had an opportunity to do so.

Players with this mentality are part of why I refuse to tank. This doesn't happen just when tanks are slow or are doing one pack pulls. I have seen healers and dps silently pull an additional pack even if the tank already pulled two. And then some have the cheek to get incredibly irritated when it doesn't go well, even though they're the ones who put the party in that position without any warning.

I recall an awful situation in which a dps pulled an extra pack on top of the two the tank pulled and we wiped. The healer had not healed in several months so they were very rusty and the tank had already used quite a lot of their cds on the previous pull. The dps's response to the explanation was "learn to play better before you do DF" and I really wonder where they expect people to learn or relearn how to play. Doing trials doesn't teach much about dungeons, guildhests are only for low lvl content and smashing a dummy teaches you absolutely nothing about tanking or healing with large packs of mobs.

Crap like this is part of why tank and healer anxiety is so common.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Crap like this is part of why tank and healer anxiety is so common.

Tank/healer anxiety is nothing more than a myth. It's simply people being 'scared' of absolutely nothing at all. What the reality of the situation is, is that they're afraid that unlike on DPS, on tank/healer someone will actually SEE their screw up and call them out on it. It isn't that they're afraid of tanking or healing, it's that they're afraid of being people knowing they screwed up.

[Penthea]

Tank/healer anxiety is nothing more than a myth. It's simply people being 'scared' of absolutely nothing at all. What the reality of the situation is, is that they're afraid that unlike on DPS, on tank/healer someone will actually SEE their screw up and call them out on it. It isn't that they're afraid of tanking or healing, it's that they're afraid of being people knowing they screwed up.

Not as simple as that. Not at all.

If a dps makes one mistake with their abilities it very rarely causes a death or a wipe. However if a tank or healer mess up even just once that can quickly lead to death or a wipe. That can be a lot of pressure. I've seen many wipes because a tank or healer was too slow to press a button or misjudged what was needed for the situation.

Healers and tanks very heavily rely on each other to play well. I've had some dungeon runs be wildly different despite being the same content simply due to the skill of the tank. I've had some tanks who made healing a breeze and others make it a nightmare. With dps...well regardless of how bad the rest of the party is you're still just doing your rotation. Your rotation doesn't increase in difficulty because the other dps sucks. At most you end up using some ogcds to survive, and maybe kite if things go really really badly. Tank and healer roles quite literally become more difficult to do if one of them is not very good.

That is partially why bad dps players are fairly common. In dungeons it is rarely super obvious if they're doing something wrong unless they're horrifically bad or you have a parser, which most people don't. It's especially even less obvious if the other dps is such a good player that one of them not being very good matters little. In dungeons there isn't a second tank or healer to carry a less skilled tank or healer. Because of this it tends to be very quickly obvious if the tank or healer are not good players. This can make the learning phase for those two roles quite stressful.

This is not to say dps is an easier role. It's just different. Dps get pressure in different places, namely savage because the demand for big numbers is often very high. Because of how important dps is in that content the pressure on them is absolutely constant as long as there is something to hit. Whereas for healers and tanks the pressure is on and off depending on what mechanics are happening.

[Lucy_Pyre]

If a dps makes one mistake with their abilities it very rarely causes a death or a wipe. However if a tank or healer mess up even just once that can quickly lead to death or a wipe.

In casual content, no lol. Literally the only current casual content where a wipe can be caused by a *single* mistake is if you do the big pull before the final boss on Anyder (which you should always do) and you have a WHM that, somehow, fails to Bene the tank before their invuln cooldown wears off. I don't know how you could actually fail to do that since you have a minimum of 8 seconds to do so, but I guess some people really are that slow if the amount of Cure 1 spamming WHMs at level 70/80 I've seen lately are anything to judge by.

[Penthea]

In casual content, no lol. Literally the only current casual content where a wipe can be caused by a *single* mistake is if you do the big pull before the final boss on Anyder (which you should always do) and you have a WHM that, somehow, fails to Bene the tank before their invuln cooldown wears off. I don't know how you could actually fail to do that since you have a minimum of 8 seconds to do so, but I guess some people really are that slow if the amount of Cure 1 spamming WHMs at level 70/80 I've seen lately are anything to judge by.

I have genuinely found some trash packs with unskilled tanks far harder to heal than savage. Savage's incoming damage is most of the time super predictable so as long as you know the fight you know what you will have to do well in advance of it. Pugs chain pulling packs in dungeons? It's lottery. The damage can wildly vary depending on the tank's skill and pulling habits, and if the dps happen to be quite slow at taking the mobs down in addition to having a bad tank it can be an awful experience.

But I get the feeling you're going to "no lol" on this as well to justify your idea that tank/healer anxiety is a myth and dps/healers pulling mobs means the tank somehow messed up.

Maybe you just have far better luck in DF than I do.

[LaughingBanana]

I have genuinely found some trash packs with unskilled tanks far harder to heal than savage. Savage's incoming damage is most of the time super predictable so as long as you know the fight you know what you will have to do well in advance of it. Pugs chain pulling packs in dungeons? It's lottery. The damage can wildly vary depending on the tank's skill and pulling habits, and if the dps happen to be quite slow at taking the mobs down in addition to having a bad tank it can be an awful experience.

But I get the feeling you're going to "no lol" on this as well to justify your idea that tank/healer anxiety is a myth and dps/healers pulling mobs means the tank somehow messed up.

Maybe you just have far better luck in DF than I do.

Considering what I read in their posts, I think you got it backwards, since it seems like they are often put in a situation when they consider the other three to be performing beneath them or not up to their standards.

[Vyrerus]

You play objectively wrong if you, as the tank, don't make the entire final Anyder pull. Despite me just saying that the group sets the pace and tanks aren't special.

So which is it? You're engaging in some double-think here, Lucy.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

So you think if someone is learning something at a location then that must be the only location they intend to use what they learned?

Does this mean that if I study programming in university that I intend to only ever do programming in a university? That I would not and cannot bring that knowledge elsewhere?

You have some funny ideas about A LOT of things.

Which high end content requires you to pull 2+ packs of monsters repeatedly?

Also "I don't want to leave my comfort zone" =/= "I'm still learning"
Give a rest to the damn learning excuse. People aren't eternally learning the same dungeon over and over.

So which is it? You're engaging in some double-think here, Lucy.

I'm sure that if the group can handle it, the game is going to hijack control of the tank and force them to do the pull.
It's not like you still have to make the pull, if the group can handle it or anything /s

I see the weird mental gymnastics for defending laziness and inept gameplay have returned...

[Lucy_Pyre]

So which is it? You're engaging in some double-think here, Lucy.

Not really. Just because the entire group sets the pace it doesn't mean that if your DPS are brainlets or your healer is a Cure 1 bot that you'll always be able to do the biggest pull possible, and if your group prevents you from doing it for whatever reason then that means that those members are objectively forcing you to play wrong.