The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[Melichoir]

I think that this is what some in this thread are asking for, but I don't think that it's what people on Twitter which the OP linked to are asking for. And as I stated above, in general people spend way more time complaining about female characters showing skin than they do actually asking for more male skin being shown and such. I think that in general a lot of game developers are afraid of upsetting their male audience many of which are very insecure and homophobia isn't really that uncommon.

Im incredibly inclined to completely ignore any further points simply because Im personally tired of the "Well, they dont do it cause males so insecure about homosexuality." It's a tired, age old argument that uses tropes against male players to explain design differences. It is no different than dismissing female players as 'posers' - a generalization used to discredit a portion of the player base based on sex. This concept is bandied about like were still living like 30-40 years ago where its like "Dude, Bro, That guy is totally gay! He must be a -insert slur here-! Now lets go have tons of hotness with females cause were so manly".

Hell that has becoming the running joke - the hyper masculine jock is actually secretly gay and ashamed of themselves.

Most guys dont give an 'f' anymore. Some do, sure and that is unfortunate to say it lightly, but most dont. And if youve been around the internet enough (which I would guess is a yes), you shouldve quickly learned that when trashier people want to really get under your skin, the first thing theyll do is look for something that you take on a personal level and use it against you.

So instead of adding more male characters like that they just erase it with the female characters to avoid having to strive more for equal options for everyone. The mentality in the West especially is basically '' either only the female characters can be sexy or no one can '' ( in general ). Even sexy male characters in most Western games in particular are still designed to appeal to the stereotypical '' CoD dudebro '', they're still very '' hyper masculine '' super ultra muscular in a way that I think mostly appeals to men. In FFXIV and Japanese games in general tho a bit more femininity seems to be generally accepted, I don't think that anyone would complain if we got more of it in FFXIV.

I speculate that when this does occur, its because there has been a ton of pressure on the gaming industry to downplay female sexuality under concepts like 'the male gaze' and that eye candy is purely demeaning to women over "Lets not have as many sexy hot men". Now, if we want to discuss it fairly, yes, some stuff is explicitly done for the simple sake of "I like sexy", which is fine. Not all art has to be politically correct. Sometimes liking things for the simple sake of visual appeal is alright. Youre not a monster if you like looking at sexually attractive characters from time to time. That's something that I think gets lost in the discussion.

Then we have to start discussing actually what people like. Gonna be blunt and frank - I do art commission work from time to time, and of that, some of it is adult related. Let me tell you, people have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide variety of tastes. What some men and women like or think as attractive or pleasing is not the same for others. There are women I have encountered who like the elegant and delicate male look, but as many men who much more prefer the more burly looking man. Conversely, there are women who also like that burly brawny man look and hate the effeminate man who looks like theyll snap in half like a twig.

It's all down to preferences and tastes of the individual. So it is a moot point to state "Well we need more men like Omega M, and less like Titan (Eden, not the chicken nugget)" because even if you were to add in those, you are disregarding players who have preferences different than you. And it all comes back to eye candy, no matter how you cut it. The OP isnt pointing out 'Tawdry' female characters in the game in general, theyre pointing specifically to bosses - bosses which wont generally have fleshed personalities.

So lets do it this way. You want burly men, you get burly men. You want slim elegent men? Lets throw those in too. Lets throw in small brickhouses of men and tall drinks of water. I dont care, and I dont think most players would, no matter their background. The goal is, no matter how you cut it, people want to look at sexy things and want more of it tailored to their tastes. Which is fine. Something for everyone broadly.

What I will take umbrage with is people who are like "To many of these female bosses are too scantily clad" but turn around and be like "We need more guy candy". That nonsense bothers me to no end. You want guy candy then you need to be fine with the ladies too, and vice versa. It's either we give it to everyone and say a job well done, or we do it for no one.

[PondHollow]

What I will take umbrage with is people who are like "To many of these female bosses are too scantily clad" but turn around and be like "We need more guy candy". That nonsense bothers me to no end. You want guy candy then you need to be fine with the ladies too, and vice versa. It's either we give it to everyone and say a job well done, or we do it for no one.

This is a failure of logic or a far-fetched interpretation if you're talking about my OP; regardless, by its presence in this thread it is so misleading it merits a response.

I didn't suggest eliminating the scantily clad women, and I didn't suggest male fanservice to be as extreme and pornographic as what we already have in the game. I use the word obscene in particular because it is generally just that, subjective as it may be. Many of the bosses we have are not so much 'scantily clad' as they are 'normally considered extreme or unfit for public display.' We can easily introduce a bunch of strippers, male and female, and yet by doing so tone down the licentiousness of the average such humanoid depiction because of what is already present.

I'm all for a variety of things, and not particularly keen on humanoids or lascivious gimmickry in the first place. But what we have is both wildly lopsided and at times seriously concerning.

[Melichoir]

This is a failure of logic or a far-fetched interpretation if you're talking about my OP; regardless, by its presence in this thread it is so misleading it merits a response.

I didn't suggest eliminating the scantily clad women, and I didn't suggest male fanservice to be as extreme and pornographic as what we already have in the game. I use the word obscene in particular because it is generally just that, subjective as it may be. Many of the bosses we have are not so much 'scantily clad' as they are 'normally considered extreme or unfit for public display.' We can easily introduce a bunch of strippers, male and female, and yet by doing so tone down the licentiousness of the average such humanoid depiction because of what is already present.

I'm all for a variety of things, and not particularly keen on humanoids or lascivious gimmickry in the first place. But what we have is both wildly lopsided and at times seriously concerning.

Spin it out how you must - more classy guys, more sexy guys, more whatever. Whatever floats your boat, that is fine. It is eye candy no matter how you cut it. Just different flavors of it.

Keep in mind your whole opening post is a juxtaposition between "obscene and tawdry" female bosses, linking to a twitter post as what you mean by it, then give Godbert - a fit & conventionally handsome man who spends most of his time in his skippies, as being desirable and need more of. What exactly do you think your comparison implies you are looking to have more represented?

The issue is you are misunderstanding my overall point - eye candy for everyone is perfectly fine. What shape it takes is irrelevant. Lets just throw it out there and let people sort it out. I however will take umbrage with people who will state things about objectification and how its bad, but change their tune the second its ok to show off the male form in similar show. Either we're cool with it all on equal footing or no one should get it, no matter the form it takes.

[VirusOnline]

Im incredibly inclined to completely ignore any further points simply because Im personally tired of the "Well, they dont do it cause males so insecure about homosexuality." It's a tired, age old argument that uses tropes against male players to explain design differences. It is no different than dismissing female players as 'posers' - a generalization used to discredit a portion of the player base based on sex. This concept is bandied about like were still living like 30-40 years ago where its like "Dude, Bro, That guy is totally gay! He must be a -insert slur here-! Now lets go have tons of hotness with females cause were so manly".

Hell that has becoming the running joke - the hyper masculine jock is actually secretly gay and ashamed of themselves.

Most guys dont give an 'f' anymore. Some do, sure and that is unfortunate to say it lightly, but most dont. And if youve been around the internet enough (which I would guess is a yes), you shouldve quickly learned that when trashier people want to really get under your skin, the first thing theyll do is look for something that you take on a personal level and use it against you.

If I could, I'd like to quote this in response from an article on Gamasutra which was quotes in our year 2011.

Because there is a large presence of the heterosexual man’s identity in the development process and in gaming’s audience, the perceived “neutral” vision of game design takes on the influence of the socially appropriate interests specific to straight men. The lack of men’s sexualization is a product of the average straight guy’s impulse to avoid appearing or feeling gay. Men have a fig leaf of sorts when it comes to camera work and character design, while women get more attention and exposure. What sexual bits we do see are “safe” for heterosexual men to view without feeling like they’re watching something “gay,” such as muscular arms or exposed torsos. A common counter-argument concerns the issue of men’s impossible body image in games, which is definitely important, but mostly a different discussion to tackle. The aesthetic of muscles denote strength, agency, and power for the assumed male player to relate to, while emphasis on T&A when viewing women only serves as fan-service. Both rely on problematic ideals, but there is still a power relation present in theis representation that favors men.

Bringing in personal experience as well, and I'm only in my 20s and perhaps being asian has a large part to do with it as well, the perception of how we see ourselves reflected in games can be one that exists on a subconscious plane. This entire idea is prevalent in some cultures and societies today. To say that this mode of thinking is outdated attempts to downplay the experience that people like me might have gone through despite ending up to believe against such oudated concepts. But to deny this belief doesn't exist or is not in the minds of "most" men is a bit folly to say it exists only 30-40 years ago. We are not all progressive people and or countries. I'd like to challenge the "most" men concept especially when it comes to marketing a game.

What I will take umbrage with is people who are like "To many of these female bosses are too scantily clad" but turn around and be like "We need more guy candy". That nonsense bothers me to no end. You want guy candy then you need to be fine with the ladies too, and vice versa. It's either we give it to everyone and say a job well done, or we do it for no one.

Since the beginning of this thread's page, people have taken serious offence to the shallow title as if it's an attack on women. It's a criticism to SE's design team.
It's valid criticism. You can complain that the female bosses are too scantily clad when men are not given the same treatment. It's a fair view on SE's design, but then that will point back to the quote I put earlier. No one here is taking offence to primarily sexy female bosses. The offence is at the lack of the counterpart.

[Hysterior]

The offence is at the lack of the counterpart.

Which is pretty flagrant as soon as you even open the character creation
Boob size: No problem, we have a slider. Make them huge.
Man parts: Error 404

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Which is pretty flagrant as soon as you even open the character creation
Boob size: No problem, we have a slider. Make them huge.
Man parts: Error 404

In a social area, like a mall for example- I can tell at a glance the size of someone's breasts or butt. Yet to be able to figure out someone's junk though at a glance.

Even if FFXIV were to be devoid of sexualization, you'd still know the size of everyone's butts and breasts- and that's the case for all games. Even very family friendly ones there's a decision on what size to make everyone's butts and breasts because it's unavoidable that you will notice their size unless everyone's in robes, and in fairness they should make everything that we can see customizable.

I'm not sure if you're seriously comparing breasts to man's junk- as is men can show off their chests without any clothing at all, so if you really want to get into counterparts compare men and women's chests, and the bareness of one.

And before you say 'but it is not the same' remember what you just did.

[craybest]

In a social area, like a mall for example- I can tell at a glance the size of someone's breasts or butt. Yet to be able to figure out someone's junk though at a glance.

Even if FFXIV were to be devoid of sexualization, you'd still know the size of everyone's butts and breasts- and that's the case for all games. Even very family friendly ones there's a decision on what size to make everyone's butts and breasts because it's unavoidable that you will notice their size unless everyone's in robes, and in fairness they should make everything that we can see customizable.

I'm not sure if you're seriously comparing breasts to man's junk- as is men can show off their chests without any clothing at all, so if you really want to get into counterparts compare men and women's chests, and the bareness of one.

And before you say 'but it is not the same' remember what you just did.

where's the male pec size slider then? or the unisex butt slider? as long as it's just for boobs, it's clearly marketed towards straight males only.

[Krotoan]

where's the male pec size slider then? or the unisex butt slider? as long as it's just for boobs, it's clearly marketed towards straight males only.

Bisexuals, lesbians.

I even know a lot of straight women who like boobs.


And honestly it's not only about sex. It's about making your character look how you want.

So while sure, the men got shorted, it's not like OMG THE STRAIGHT MALE GAZE WINS OVER ALL.

If there's any complaint there it's that male customization didn't get a muscle slider, not that it's all about the sex.

[Razard]

But the best semi naked male body is already in the game.





/thread

[craybest]

Bisexuals, lesbians.

I even know a lot of straight women who like boobs.


And honestly it's not only about sex. It's about making your character look how you want.

So while sure, the men got shorted, it's not like OMG THE STRAIGHT MALE GAZE WINS OVER ALL.

If there's any complaint there it's that male customization didn't get a muscle slider, not that it's all about the sex.

i said "marketed towards" not that no one else is allowe to like it. it's not explicitely marketed towards lesbians or bisexual women. it's marketed specifically towards straight makes, like it's been done for decades.
no one is against sexualization in general, it's when it's done only towards one sideor demographic that it starts looking wrong. FFXIV isn't the worst at this. in fact it's one of the few MMOs where you can have your male character in actual skimpy clothes, and it's got a lot of praise for that. But for bosses, it's usually just sexy girls for some reason.