Skill level necessary to clear HW MSQ content

[MrThinker]

I'm not actually maining SMN but I do acknowledge that, while picking ACN for a starting class may have been a boon to level, at lv50 it becomes a nightmare to gear. Just that I prioritized SCH over SMN for accessories at the onset because I intended to use SCH in the group content the MSQ requires of me (and I'd use SCH as well if I decide to just forgo the MSQ and go the route of mastering EX trials and BCoB in both difficulties before hitting HW MSQ) and keep SMN for the solo portion.

It's still early-ish, and I haven't run Leviathan yet (but Leviathan is next), so I still have time to address gearing before going into HW. And, given my history of messing up mechanics in key MSQ fights (Ifrit HM, Titan HM and Thornmarch) it's a safe bet that I really need to shore up that portion of what I called "skill". In fact I may wish to revisit these MSQ fights before tackling Leviathan until I master all three of these, and even run their EX once I have made some gearing progress.

Huh, 2.2 quests. Tell us, have you been using the Allagan tomestones of poetics you have recieved from doing level 50 content to purchase gear in Revenant's Toll?

[Stepjam]

If you are able to find people who will run Binding Coils sync'd with you, more power to you, but it's definitely not necessary as far as being skilled enough to continue MSQ goes. In fact starting with HW, the raid series has a normal difficulty for the story and savage specifically for challenge and top tier gear.

I guess if you are able to be clearing EX fights, you'll definitely be ready for normal, but it's a bit extreme (heh) as far as preparation goes. But once again, more power to you.

[Hasrat]

Sounds like it's not so much skill you need, just time to learn mechanics. That's not strictly something that "carries over" into MSQ or anything.

Gearing up is all well and good, but most of the HM content should still be clearable without much trouble even at those levels, considering everyone else is fully capable of carrying. If you're going in as a first time healer (with middling gear) to a fight you don't know, yeah, going to be a fair bit of trouble. Learning a fight while also keeping up with heals is just bonus stress. You've got the added difficulty of heals not being as strong as they could be. But, with the benefit of a second healer. Just, let the group know you're new, and hopefully partner healer can help pick up some slack while you learn the fight.

Again, would say that there's little skill to gain from harder fights. It's less about skill, more about mechanics. If you're unprepared for a mechanic and get hit, you'll start to learn how to handle that mechanic. But it's not strictly something that translates to being better in anything else. It's the same game of "dodge the telegraph." You can learn how to do that in Sastasha as easily as you can in Coils.

Also yeah, queuing into any EX or Coils is unlikely to get you a group for a considerable amount of time, and even then, likely to be a group with a steep learning curve. Running that content synced is something not often done anymore. Because it can be difficult juggling all the mechanics of each fight for everyone. But, those are fights far beyond what is run for MSQ.

As an example, you can fight and learn and feel skilled all you want, but that doesn't strictly mean you'll instinctively know how to handle Leviathan's mechanics when you get in. That's just sorta something you'll have to pick up as you go.

All that said, if you still to run the fights, synced or unsynced, go for it. Tho, I guess unsynced is probably more of a zerg these days than when I ran them like that pre-4.0. Still. They can be fun fights to learn. Just, expect to die a bit for them as well. Gear still counts for something in those fights either way.

[ItMe]

Sounds like it's not so much skill you need, just time to learn mechanics. That's not strictly something that "carries over" into MSQ or anything.

[...]

Again, would say that there's little skill to gain from harder fights. It's less about skill, more about mechanics. If you're unprepared for a mechanic and get hit, you'll start to learn how to handle that mechanic. But it's not strictly something that translates to being better in anything else. It's the same game of "dodge the telegraph." You can learn how to do that in Sastasha as easily as you can in Coils.

That's fair... To a point.
But a lot of this game is building on player knowledge as later fights reuse a lot of mechanics, they just have players connect the dots differently.
Practicing up on the early stuff def helps one get an understanding and a feel for how this game plays, and learning how you need to learn mechanics.
Though you may never see Ifrit's nails or Garuda's feathers again, there's still value in learning those fights.

[Curisu]

Still, msq is a faceroll content and gearing up is the only thing that helps you.
Get the ilevel 120/130 tomb gear and you should be fine with 1/2 of HW. Then equip every dungeon drop that's better then the gear to get through the 2nd half of the add on.

If you want to raid savage and even try the ultimate challenges, then you should consider to clear older savage content in synced mode. Because only then you really need the "skill" received by older synced down content.

[Hasrat]

That's fair... To a point.
But a lot of this game is building on player knowledge as later fights reuse a lot of mechanics, they just have players connect the dots differently.
Practicing up on the early stuff def helps one get an understanding and a feel for how this game plays, and learning how you need to learn mechanics.
Though you may never see Ifrit's nails or Garuda's feathers again, there's still value in learning those fights.

There is. But I would hold that much of it still boils down to "dodge the telegraph." To that end, much of the skill/knowledge that might carry over is simply learning new telegraphs. Which is kinda just as much just learning fight mechanics. Learning the "no indicator cleave" or the divebomb or the knockback, etc. They're reused mechanics, with different animations each time, so, it's maybe a bit of a 50/50 of recognizing it vs learning what it looks like in each fight. And yeah, nails/feathers falls into this as well, under "kill the adds." Any new enemy that shows up during a boss fight (usually) needs killed asap. Except when it doesn't. Which, those few scattered exceptions throws a bit of a wrench in the learning/skills attempt.

"Kill the adds, don't die." Gets you through the vast majority. Might sound a bit dumb, but, adds are often the real killers in most fights, and need to go down. After that, even if you're not contributing much, just running around trying to stay alive can often be enough to win out by attrition.

But also, I don't main heals, so, much of my advice may fail to apply.

Also, for context, we are here debating the necessity of running ARR EX/Coils, synced no less, to learn these skills. Setting aside MSQ to run that content synced for the sake of learning EX/Savage-level skills to apply to MSQ-level content. To me, there's no real argument to be made there, it's unnecessary.
By all means, if it's a goal, go for it, because it's fun and there's some accomplishment to feel clearing content that most will have never run. But by no means should it be the bar to clear to progress MSQ.

[Iscah]

That's fair... To a point.
But a lot of this game is building on player knowledge as later fights reuse a lot of mechanics, they just have players connect the dots differently.
Practicing up on the early stuff def helps one get an understanding and a feel for how this game plays, and learning how you need to learn mechanics.
Though you may never see Ifrit's nails or Garuda's feathers again, there's still value in learning those fights.

Yes the mechanics get repeated, and you're still going to see it for the first time "somewhere".

But saying that you have to to the extra-hard content first so you'll recognise what to do when you see the same mechanic in a normal-difficulty fight later is putting things back-to-front. If you just continue with the other content and encounter the mechanics there, then you get to apply that to the hard content if you ever come back to challenge yourself on it.

You're either going to need to put a lot of effort into learning those EX fights, or put the same effort into learning the simpler normal-difficulty fights that will allow you to progress further into the game.

[Frizze]

It's still early-ish, and I haven't run Leviathan yet (but Leviathan is next), so I still have time to address gearing before going into HW. And, given my history of messing up mechanics in key MSQ fights (Ifrit HM, Titan HM and Thornmarch) it's a safe bet that I really need to shore up that portion of what I called "skill". In fact I may wish to revisit these MSQ fights before tackling Leviathan until I master all three of these, and even run their EX once I have made some gearing progress.

So this is the advice that i would offer. Keep in mind the idea of upgrading gear. Keep in mind the idea of revisiting a few fights to see how they feel on replay. Even keep in mind the idea of trying harder fights as training. First, try the Leviathan fight. Story mode isnt that hard. You need to kill some adds. You get a couple of divebombs to dodge(failure tends to be a debuff rather then death). Hopefully you notice if youre attacking the wrong target(one of them reflects physical attacks, the other reflects magic). As long as someone does the converter mechanic(only one person needs to or even can) right, the ultimate shouldnt be an issue. Then you sorta repeat the first part until hes down. Try the fight. If at the end you still feel like you need additional training/practice/skill then you have several ideas of what to do next. If instead you pass the fight without issue, consider that you might have been more unlucky then unskillful on your previous failures. A poorly timed bit of lag can send you off the edge of the titan fight(among other things). There may be a bug causing one attack in thornmarch to hit harder then it should and not being geared enough makes that troublesome. Not knowing the fight can lead to a ton of extra damage taken with ifrit, and poor gear can turn extra damage into extra deaths. You didnt mention if you had any issues in Garuda(hard), so let that and Leviathan be a guidepost on where to go next.

Side note. If you havent done the scholar class quests up to 50, do those too. You get a couple extra very useful spells. A lot of scholar play is knowing whats coming next, and already having a shield ready to go to protect yourself and the group. Obviously, thats harder to do in a fight you dont know yet.

And if you do struggle, i would prioritize gear first. Then re-trying the fights you had trouble with(if you can figure out/know which attacks in particular were trouble, then a guide can help you avoid/mitigate them). Then trying harder versions.

[ItMe]

But saying that you have to to the extra-hard content first so you'll recognise what to do when you see the same mechanic in a normal-difficulty fight later is putting things back-to-front.

As far as I can tell no one is suggesting that.
OP has repeatedly expressed interest in doing the harder trials first and I, for one, am just saying "you really don't need to, but you're right that they would help you grow."

[Iscah]

As far as I can tell no one is suggesting that.

You were the one suggesting that (or at least appearing to suggest it), though. Thus my comment was directed at you.

Hasrat said there was no need to do hard content just to learn specific telegraphs. You responded that there's value in learning the "early fights" before moving onto later ones - which in the context of OP's intent means you're saying there's specific value in learning those "earlier" EX fights so you'll recognise the mechanics before moving onto "later" Heavensward. Which isn't any more logical than learning them at whatever future point you first encounter them because it isn't any easier to learn then in one place or another.