"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[ElciaDeiLinus]

You're joking, right? You have to be joking because this is the single funniest thing I've ever heard in regards to this game.

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

[Shalan]

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

Earlier today someone posted about a SMN not using any AoEs, and generally just spamming nothing but Ruin III in Qitana Ravel (they're level 78). If I, as a decent player, point out that they should be using AoEs on trash pulls and putting DoTs on the boss (in a respectful manner) have I wronged this player?

[Goji1639]

Earlier today someone posted about a SMN not using any AoEs, and generally just spamming nothing but Ruin III in Qitana Ravel (they're level 78). If I, as a decent player, point out that they should be using AoEs on trash pulls and putting DoTs on the boss (in a respectful manner) have I wronged this player?

It's definitely rude to do it in front of the group, but that's not to say being rude is never excusable. On a case by case basis you decide whether the situation warrants a tactless approach.

The fact that it's rude is just something to keep in mind, so you don't do it frivolously. Criticizing someone in front of the group for something petty or trivial is kind of ridiculous, even if you word it nicely. It kind of surprises me that you people don't understand why casual players sometimes snap at you for doing it.

[Doozer]

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

This, exactly.

[Shalan]

It's definitely rude to do it in front of the group, but that's not to say being rude is never excusable. On a case by case basis you decide whether the situation warrants a tactless approach.

The fact that it's rude is just something to keep in mind, so you don't do it frivolously. Criticizing someone in front of the group for something petty or trivial is kind of ridiculous, even if you word it nicely. It kind of surprises me that you people don't understand why casual players sometimes snap at you for doing it.

So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

He's currently giving unsolicited advice in front of everyone, so he's being quite rude. Telling you not to tell people they made a mistake, how dare he!

[Goji1639]

So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

Like I said, read the situation and decide for yourself if a tactless approach is worth it. All I'm saying is don't convince yourself it's a polite thing to do and start picking people apart in front of groups over trivial crap, even if you word it nicely.

He's currently giving unsolicited advice in front of everyone, so he's being quite rude. Telling you not to tell people they made a mistake, how dare he!

Actually, I wasn't addressing anyone specifically when I gave my opinions on giving advice. People started engaging with me of their own free will on this issue, thereby soliciting more opinion and elaboration from me.

Making extreme or outright nonsensical comparisons like this is not only disingenuous but shows you have no worthwhile argument to make. A proper comparison would be say, offering advice to someone in a random pickup game of Basketball if they clearly aren't playing well. You might never see this person again but in that moment their performance directly impacts your chances of winning. Therefore, it's in yours and their best interest to improve. Even if the advise offered is unsolicited. If they dismissed you and continued playing the way they wanted, no one would bat an eyelash if they were then "kicked" off the team.

But you didn't use that comparison because ruins your argument.

That example doesn't ruin anything. Why would you do that in front of everyone instead of pulling the person aside? This example only proves that you're not grasping this at all.

I think the only way you'd all be capable of grasping this is with crystal clear examples; so the example I gave was excessively and obviously rude. Your examples are rude to a lesser extent, but still very much bad mannered behavior.

And I'm out of posts...

[Lucy_Pyre]

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

If you're good at something then it's not a gigantic leap in logic to be able to tell someone else how to be good at it too.

[ForteNightshade]

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

Making extreme or outright nonsensical comparisons like this is not only disingenuous but shows you have no worthwhile argument to make. A proper comparison would be say, offering advice to someone in a random pickup game of Basketball if they clearly aren't playing well. You might never see this person again but in that moment their performance directly impacts your chances of winning. Therefore, it's in yours and their best interest to improve. Even if the advise offered is unsolicited. If they dismissed you and continued playing the way they wanted, no one would bat an eyelash if they were then "kicked" off the team.

But you didn't use that comparison because ruins your argument.

[LaughingBanana]

I remember one time back in Stormblood when running expert, I got a tank that refused to take any feedback. As a tank main, it's the one thing I know I'm decent at. I ran healer on this particular rub and I noticed that the DRK was losing aggro to dps with tank stance on, so I decided to watch his pulls. He was only using unleash one time. So I said "Hey, I just noticed the dps hit pretty hard so you may want to use unleash a few more times on your pull to generate aggro." And the response I got was "Just stop. I know what I'm doing. I'm level 70." It was then I realized there was no helping this person so I quietly finished the dungeon and left. People are so against getting advice these days that it drives me insane. I love getting feedback on my performance so I know what to improve on. I don't get why so many others don't.

That is an unfortunate situation, but is it really fair to color your impression of a community filled with millions of people by your interaction with one stubborn player. Maybe it's not "people" who are so against getting advice these days, maybe it's just that player in particular.

Also, much of the discussion that have been made in here relates to the sort of player who even, for example, as a level 80 WHM never use Dia or Glare or a level 80 Warrior never use Overpower or Mythril Tempest or like that in comparable level content, but I have to ask: are the numbers of people doing such a thing such a huge one that this become such a hotbed discussion? People who *really* never use Dia or Glare as a WHM during dungeon contents or raids or whatever?

Because honestly? I've never encountered even one of those players--even if I do, it's such a non-event thing that I could not even remember. Sure, some players are doing their healer/tank/dps better than the other, but I honestly probably can count in my left/right hand fingers the amount of time I would consider people playing the content together with me are just full of sheer incompetence--certainly not enough for me to consider that "most players in this game is inept/foolish/inexperienced" or anything like that.