Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[WhiteArchmage]

It's circled back into "Male Viera should look how I want them to look because X" except with a lot of barbs and dodgy "logic".

Honestly, I'd REALLY want someone to actually link BadLala to Yoshi-P's stance on the gender locks, i.e. the "promise" that gets thrown around (note: because I know my posts tend to be taken the wrong way, they have been asking for that source for about 20 pages but I REALLY don't want to look for it.). Mostly because it's already been shared in the thread but I really don't want to look for it. In general: it wasn't textually a promise, more of an acknowledgement of the fandom's wishes surrounding male Viera, female Roegadyns, and female Highlanders; sort of a "commitment" although the more accurate word would be "desire" to "do better" in the future. Nothing so binding as a promise (And I say that as a HUGE M!Viera/F!Hrothgar supporter, damn I'd play a Ronso Warrior-Lady in a heartbeat).

It'll probably circle back into "But Lore!" in 10 to 20 pages.

[Fredco191]

Since we seem to be on the "Male Viera should look like this/that because blah blah." bit again. I’ll just say this:
I just hope the male Viera will have giant beard options. They’re my last hope at this point. And that’s if they even get added.

[BadLala]

It's circled back into "Male Viera should look how I want them to look because X" except with a lot of barbs and dodgy "logic".

Honestly, I'd REALLY want someone to actually link BadLala to Yoshi-P's stance on the gender locks, i.e. the "promise" that gets thrown around (note: because I know my posts tend to be taken the wrong way, they have been asking for that source for about 20 pages but I REALLY don't want to look for it.). Mostly because it's already been shared in the thread but I really don't want to look for it. In general: it wasn't textually a promise, more of an acknowledgement of the fandom's wishes surrounding male Viera, female Roegadyns, and female Highlanders; sort of a "commitment" although the more accurate word would be "desire" to "do better" in the future. Nothing so binding as a promise (And I say that as a HUGE M!Viera/F!Hrothgar supporter, damn I'd play a Ronso Warrior-Lady in a heartbeat).

It'll probably circle back into "But Lore!" in 10 to 20 pages.

That's what I remember happening and could find. It was more of desire to satisfy players' demand, not a stance or a promise against genderlocking. And of course after determining the cost of adding them. Because it doesn't make sense that he'd promise no more genderlocking and in 2013 say he'd make female Viera only and another race for the male counterpart. They weren't thinking of designing Hrothgar or any beastly race at that point. So it shows that he never saw genderlocking as an issue and the reason that the missing genders in 1.0 were a "must add", according to Yoshida, was the high demand for them. If they added Au Ra instead, players would be upset that their demands were not listened to again. And now with the case of female Viera and male Horthgar, there were demands for both, according to him. But they can only afford the cost of two playable characters. If they were to overcome the cost issue in the future and can add another race, male Viera and female Hrothgar would be a "must add" just like back in 1.0.

The main reason I see for driving up their cost is how they model each gear piece and how it interacts with each other. From Yoshida's butt slider response recently, it shows that they do not have an automated way of adjusting clothes that clip with large butts and would have to do that manually. Which is why a simple slider request is hard to satisfy. But if they were to automate these processes so that it requires little to no work when adjusting a gear piece for all races, then we'd not only see male Viera and female Hrothgar, but also other races in the future can be possible if the game still continues.

[Melichoir]

So it shows that he never saw genderlocking as an issue and the reason that the missing genders in 1.0 were a "must add", according to Yoshida, was the high demand for them.

Wouldnt this imply that there was an issue with genderlocking - a demand for something people wanted and genderlocking runs counter to that demand?

Im not contesting your claim that YoshiP never promised anything, and the reason to add the off sexes was one of demand and pragmatism, but this being said it was quickly apparent that splitting up the races (making only female Viera nad Male Hrothgar, annnnd to switch design gears to include Female Viera halfway through ShB production sched) was probably the wrong choice to make. They ended up including Female Viera at the cost of Female Hrothgar (it was stated by YoshiP that Hrothgar were in Development IIRC well before female viera to give a more 'monster race' niche to help compete against games like WoW - or rather to give WoW players more beastly options) because they said that this would likely be the last chance to add a new race and Viera was still in high demand. What it boiled down to is they tried to do the best of both worlds, and ended up mismanaging it.

Yes, you would get some disappointment with no Viera if you went Hrothgar M/F, but it could be explained that "This is FFXIV and were doing something else." Which is fine. Or you couldve went full Viera, and introduced M Viera but wouldnt satisfy the players who wanted more beastly races.

What they did is reveal female viera, let fan speculation run wild with the use previously established examples of M Miqote and F Roe, and people got super hyped for Male Viera - something that wouldve been a first and in some demand. Only to pull the rug out by saying "Nah check out Hrothgars". It was kind of a wtf moment. they shouldve just stuck with one or the other cause this middle ground leaves a lot of people disappointed and wanting. Particularly considering the issues with customization on both viera and Hrothgar. It was a misstep.

From Yoshida's butt slider response recently, it shows that they do not have an automated way of adjusting clothes that clip with large butts and would have to do that manually. Which is why a simple slider request is hard to satisfy. But if they were to automate these processes so that it requires little to no work when adjusting a gear piece for all races, then we'd not only see male Viera and female Hrothgar, but also other races in the future can be possible if the game still continues.

The unfortunate truth is they need to rebuild the character engine. It was probably in vogue at the time to have the engine operate the way it does, along with saving costs by salvaging it from 1.0, but it is obviously showing the inflexible nature of it now. It might be in their better interests to bite the bullet and just rebuild the character creation engine. It is hyper expensive, but will prolong the lifespan of the game. Cause with each xpac, thats more armor models and gear they need to adjust for, whcih is cost inefficient long term. So it will actually end up limiting how many xpacs they can create or how much they can put into it.

[WhiteArchmage]

They ended up including Female Viera at the cost of Female Hrothgar (it was stated by YoshiP that Hrothgar were in Development IIRC well before female viera to give a more 'monster race' niche to help compete against games like WoW - or rather to give WoW players more beastly options) because they said that this would likely be the last chance to add a new race and Viera was still in high demand. What it boiled down to is they tried to do the best of both worlds, and ended up mismanaging it.

I actually DO have a source for that! MrHappy's interview with Yoshi-P (transcription in the description). It's the very first question but it's quite long; relevant parts are:

When I took over for ARR, I wanted to fill the missing genders to make those races seem complete. What is different now compared to then, after multiple expansions, the situation isn’t the same as when we released the base game.

We wanted to give players options and freedom to choose more races. We envisioned adding a new race, but people really wanted the Viera to play in-game. So if we add another new race that isn’t Viera, people might wonder why we didn’t do Viera, so we had to add them for sure.

Especially for FF14, we have many symbols of power or strength such as Highlander and Roegadyns. We wanted something more animal like. Its not that we wanted to create a wild west of characters, but we do need a good variety. So the simple answer is: Viera was sought after so we had to add those. To expand the game and its options, we also wanted to add Hrothgar.

MrHappy's interview is the closest we've had to a definite answer from Yoshi-P on the matter of the missing genders:

We did consider Male Viera instead of adding an extra race, but we tried to take player feedback on adding a more beast like race as well as the strong desire to receive Viera. We did expect strong feedback on the gender lock. It was a tough decision, but we decided to do our best to meet both the player feedback and our development team’s vision. It will be very costly to add a new race or genders. So I won’t say no, but I would not like to set expectations high.

[Melichoir]

snips

Ill have to take your word at this, but I do distinctly remember YoshiP stating that Hrothgar development started Before Viera, and that viera came later in the dev cycle and not the other way around. The reason why this sticks to my mind so much si that the initial narrative on reddit and the forums was that they developed Viera First but it was later corrected that Viera came second in the dev cycle, while Hrothgar was on the table since the start of ShB development.

I could very well be misremembering. But this all being said, it doesnt change the end result. They tried to do both things and ended up not really handling it well.

In fact, it actually mightve been much better, PR wise, to intro Hrothgar First, then Female Viera.

While Im nto crossing fingers, I am hoping that (Covid Aside) the reason why some development things slowed down as well as what we can consider an uptick in Mogstation items is cause tehyre devoting more resources and time to either correct the customization issues of Viera Hrothgar annnnnd give us the off sexes.

[Amnmaat]

Ill have to take your word at this, but I do distinctly remember YoshiP stating that Hrothgar development started Before Viera, and that viera came later in the dev cycle and not the other way around. The reason why this sticks to my mind so much si that the initial narrative on reddit and the forums was that they developed Viera First but it was later corrected that Viera came second in the dev cycle, while Hrothgar was on the table since the start of ShB development.

I could very well be misremembering. But this all being said, it doesnt change the end result. They tried to do both things and ended up not really handling it well.

In fact, it actually mightve been much better, PR wise, to intro Hrothgar First, then Female Viera.

While Im nto crossing fingers, I am hoping that (Covid Aside) the reason why some development things slowed down as well as what we can consider an uptick in Mogstation items is cause tehyre devoting more resources and time to either correct the customization issues of Viera Hrothgar annnnnd give us the off sexes.

Agree, if the reason we're getting so few hairstyles, or none at all is because they're working on adding the missing genders in 6.0. Too bad they can't let us know that until fanfests. I would personally spend extra money on mogstation dyes just to support the development of male Viera.

[WhiteArchmage]

Snip

Oh, I wasn't trying to contradict you, actually... I distinctly remember Yoshi-P stating that Hroth were considered before Viera but I thought it was in MrHappy's interview, which has it backwards. However, it DID make me look for the other source in this thread

Q: When did you decide to implement the female-only Viera and male-only Hrothgar?

A: It was during Return to Ivalice, around 3 months after 4.0. Viera was confirmed then, and Hrothgar came about at the same time when we were discussing plans with Matsuno-san. We were deciding whether to make a Hrothgar female or a Viera female, and after selecting Viera, work began right away, because otherwise we wouldn't make it in time. As mentioned before, the face parts are special and Hrothgar has big differences between its faces, like a lion face, wolf face, leopard face. It became a fixed model relatively recently. Viera was done right before Paris Fan Fest, and Hrothgar was done recently.

Which means either Yoshi-P gave conflicting info or the timeline is kinda muddied there... That said, I agree with your points: by trying to make both sides happy, they ended up creating a larger problem (BESIDES the limited headgear and hairstyles), and if Hroth were revealed before Viera the initial pushback may not have been as dramatic.

Here's hoping they're working on both the lack of customization and genders.