The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I don't agree that SE lacks 'tawdry males' as the OP says. If anything I think this game has some of the best variety in both male and females. The garleans will always provide heavily armoured villains, male and female. You have fully clothed, albeit still seductive villains like Yotsuyu, Tsukoyomi. Eikons have a wide variety of body types and clothing styles. Shiva, Sophia and garuda are scanty, but so are ifrit and titan. In both cases you have near naked, highly attractive males and females following the generally accepted norms for beauty (lithe, curved females and muscular, imposing males). For clothed you have Lakshmi, Titania, Ramuh.

There's also pretty boys, like Omega and Alphinaud (clothed), final Kefka (near naked)- and a large selection of ascians and garleans who are overly handsome, plus a wealth of highly unclothed potential future bosses when they draw from previous final fantasies.

And then, there's also a large number of 'ugly' bosses and characters. I can see the argument that there's more feminine clothing and scantily dressed females than there are males, but I don't see how that's a problem when the variety is still clearly there, and for everyone from bosses to allies to our own available glamours. If you want to be fully armoured or wear an outfit that shows no skin as a female, you have numerous options- if you want to be hardly dressed as a male, you have numerous options. I'm sure males do have more full armour choices of course- but I'm also quite certain that more males are using those options, and on the flip I'm certain there's a more sizable number of females using more revealing outfits than males. In that sense I think SE has done this perfectly- both taking the majority's desire into account by providing a great amount of options for them, while still providing choice for the more niche aesthetic desires.

[sarehptar]

I don't agree that SE lacks 'tawdry males' as the OP says. If anything I think this game has some of the best variety in both male and females. The garleans will always provide heavily armoured villains, male and female. You have fully clothed, albeit still seductive villains like Yotsuyu, Tsukoyomi. Eikons have a wide variety of body types and clothing styles. Shiva, Sophia and garuda are scanty, but so are ifrit and titan. In both cases you have near naked, highly attractive males and females following the generally accepted norms for beauty (lithe, curved females and muscular, imposing males). For clothed you have Lakshmi, Titania, Ramuh.

Imagine being able to compare this


and this


to this


and this


with a straight face. Truly wild. Some of y'all really would find a rock sexy, I guess.

[Skivvy]

with a straight face. Truly wild. Some of y'all really would find a rock sexy, I guess.

I am digging the rock-hard abs. :3

[Tsumdere]

Some of y'all really would find a rock sexy, I guess.

Wait... you don't? I prefer them metamorphic rocks myself.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Not sure what the issue is- obviously attractive men in no clothing compared to obviously attractive women in minimal clothing. Perhaps you'd like to go into more detail into why you think such a clear and obvious comparison is something incomparable? Is 'well he is made of rock so even though he looks like the stereotype of male attraction that's thousands of years old, he is not handsome because... he's made of rock' truly so grand an argument you'd consider it worthy of utterly dismissing what I said without any further thought?

[sarehptar]

Not sure what the issue is- obviously attractive men in no clothing compared to obviously attractive women in minimal clothing. Perhaps you'd like to go into more detail into why you think such a clear and obvious comparison is something incomparable? Is 'well he is made of rock so even though he looks like the stereotype of male attraction that's thousands of years old, he is not handsome because... he's made of rock' truly so grand an argument you'd consider it worthy of utterly dismissing what I said without any further thought?

I just... have so many questions about your definition of "attractive male." So. many. questions.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I just... have so many questions about your definition of "attractive male." So. many. questions.

I'm not necessarily talking my definition, but the widespread one. Muscular, tall, broad shoulders, a somewhat triangular shape, limited to no fat, strong jaw, generally angular features and an overall neat appearance which often means things like groomed hair/body/facial hair (as opposed to uneven hair, neck beards, etc...). Now, personally yes I'd consider such a male attractive too- but that's not an uncommon thing, and it's a form that is considered attractive through numerous eras.

The softer, curvier females are also a fairly long lasting view of female beauty. We also do have the more modern, anime handsome boys- like your Omega, Kefka, Alphinaud- in this game too.

What sort of men do you find attractive?

[sarehptar]

I'm not necessarily talking my definition, but the widespread one. Muscular, tall, broad shoulders, a somewhat triangular shape, limited to no fat, strong jaw, generally angular features and an overall neat appearance which often means things like groomed hair/body/facial hair (as opposed to uneven hair, neck beards, etc...). Now, personally yes I'd consider such a male attractive too- but that's not an uncommon thing, and it's a form that is considered attractive through numerous eras.

The softer, curvier females are also a fairly long lasting view of female beauty. We also do have the more modern, anime handsome boys- like your Omega, Kefka, Alphinaud- in this game too.

What sort of men do you find attractive?

Usually ones with eyeballs and lips, neither of which Ifrit has. Skin instead of exoskeleton, kind of a big plus, and I admit I do tend to prefer men without three-inch-long talon toenails or needle-shaped teeth. Four-foot tall horns jutting from a hairless head usually doesn't do it for me either, but maybe my standards are just too high...

I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough. You do realize that "vaguely man-shaped monster" is not the same thing as "This boss is literally just a slightly over-sized but otherwise normal woman" right? Like, that IS a difference you can parse? Please tell me it is.

[Melichoir]

Wasn't there literally a study done where they asked female participants to rate male bodies, and they assumed the most bulky, powerful body would be the highest rated but then the highest rated ended up being the one who looked generally fit but also significantly less imposing?

First, It was that study (or another study done along similar lines) that noted that depending on what stage in life the woman was, the answer changed.

Second, I said Strength, Ruggedness, Power and Physique, but I wasnt specific enough I guess. My bad. Obviously at its extreme, you get Mr. Universe, which yes according to studies, women generally werent a fan of it. But this is like saying a woman with long ass legs, Triple G Breasts, and super narrow waste and wide hips is more desirable than..I dunno, Natalie Portman's figure. Anything put to the extreme is gonna taper off. The ideal male form is going to be along what I said. Masculine, built to look like they are strong, typical male 'v' torso. The nuances change.However, you are beginning to venture into the territory of exaggeration and concept.

There is such a huge difference between "the classical ideal male has muscles" and "the classical ideal man is a guy so jacked he looks like he eats nothing but protein powder and drinks nothing but his own gym sweat." Male characters who are swollen beyond all reasonable limits aren't designed to be attractive to female viewers; they're power fantasy figures for male viewers.

How do you define what is attractive and what isnt? Do you speak on behalf of all female viewers. What about gay viewers? Even then, is the male power fantasy always the same for everyone. To look super jacked? There are a lot of males who dont find their power fantasy to be Mr. Universe. Strong yes, but not a rippling mess of muscle. Some do, some dont. It varies. In fact it's not always about muscle mass. Then using this logic about 'attractiveness', why isnt Shiva a female power fantasy? Not all power fantasies are about being muscled. Theyre about ' the power dynamic', and shiva has plenty of it. Are we gonna suggest that most women would rather have Matoya's body over Shivas? That if given the choice of an insert, a female viewer isnt going to choose the attractive female character vs ugly or plain one? Or are we going to suggest that females dont have power fantasies, or that the female power fantasy is identical to the male power fantasy.

The 'male power fantasy concept' is often an extremely narrow and inconsistent concept. That female characters only exist for the male gaze, and male characters are for male inserts completely ignores the varieties of peoples preferences.

(Someone link that Hugh Jackman on a men's magazine vs. Hugh Jackman on a women's magazine post, I'm too lazy.) I agree with your point that most women wouldn't find a very effeminate male character as attractive (although the millions of K-pop stans around the globe might beg to differ), but let's not create a false dichotomy that suggests the only two possible male figures are "ripped as fuck Byakko" at one end and "looks like a girl" at the other.

It isnt my attempt to say "Every guy has to be jacked or theyre a girl look-alike." Of course theres a range between, but classically speaking, the ideal male figure for women viewers who want that is going to have fitness attached to it. People will take Hugh Jackman over a limp noodle skinny guy generally. Not always, but generally. This is much the same why people would take, lets say, scarlett johansson over a frumpy over weight woman. People dont aspire to be ugly, typically.

In between those two is the far-more-common "yeah he works out, but he also doesn't look like he could crush my head between his bulging pecs, oh and look he has a nice face too" male image that I'd wager is far, far closer to the stereotypical "attractive male" image for average women. I mean... give random women on the street a picture of Byakko and then a picture of Thancred and then ask them which one qualifies as "attractive" and we all know what the answer will be. Take a picture of Eden's Ifrit around to a crowd of women on the street and I'm pretty sure 3/4s of them wouldn't even be able to identify it as male, let alone sexy.

I agree broadly but youre not being totally fair in your comparison. Take a picture of Minfillia and a picture of Garuda and ask men who they think qualifies as attractive. We also live in a weeb community, to be blunt. A lot of people here think Yshtola is hot AF, but to my non weeby friends, shes wierd looking. So some of this is gonna be preference. Also, I tend to be in more of the thought process people will probably identify Eden Ifrit as male, much like they would with Eden Titan, or Eden Shiva as being Female, etc. Theres gonna be some quick hands people will see as male archetypes or female archetypes (beyond boobs)

I'm sure there are plenty of monster fuckers playing this game, and your post did just force me to admit that some people in this world find Kefka attractive, but trying to act like Byakko, Kefka, and Neo Ex-Death are remotely close to "stereotypically attractive male" in comparison to how closely Shiva, Sophia, the Ruby Princess, and many other female bosses align to "stereotypically attractive female" is really, really silly.

Theres a wierd notion that a lot of hte female bosses are just hot ladies, but some of them are freaky as hell. I would want to spend a night with Tsukuyomi, as an example. Or Garuda. If were gonna take about conventional attractiveness that is more middle road, then that will eliminate a ton of female bosses as well. You may still get more female then male, but I suspect the number differential is gonna be between a few.

"I don't want to see any more bosses like Omega-M" is a totally fair opinion a person can have, but "There are plenty of attractive male figures in this game already; just look at Raktapaksa!" is utter nonsense.

I dont mind more bosses looking like Omega M. Thats fine. But I do take exception that this is some how a hyper skewed view of bosses - That Titan isnt attractive to anyone but somehow everyone really wants to get up into Garuda. I'll run with that concept if we are going to argue that men have lower standards on what to spend a night with, which I think isnt fair.

So are you for covering up the female bosses or just against male bosses showing any skin? Don't shift the goal post here; there will always be people complaining about fanservice designs, male or female, but that has nothing to do with those who merely want to see a better balance in the amount of fanservice aimed at female versus male players when it comes to boss design.

Im neither for or against either. I want consistency and clarity in what is being requested - Are we looking for more bosses to wear more revealing outfits, that are more conventionally handsome, aka a Male Shiva Equivalent. Or do we go the opposite direction and cut otu the 'fanservicy' female bosses. Make all bosses indecipherable from being male or female. I dont care either way - Im more thinking about down teh road issues. Where someone screeches "Women are being objectified!" male gaze nonsense, but completely ignore that you have an equivilant on the male side - something I see from time to time in these debates. Either we fan service this up and we all agree "Yeah more fanservice, screw it! Lets all just bask in the hotness" or we all say "Nah, lets get this a bit more covered up and neutral."

Breasts are literally designed to produce and feed milk to young. Even taking into account simian aspects like legs and arms, what would an egg-laying species where the mothers do not rear the young need breasts for? Like, from a strictly scientific perspective here, is there some alternate function to the fish boobies that would validate them being there?)

Fictional species that lays eggs has structures that appear like breasts, doesnt mean they are milk providing breasts.

You are relying so heavily on the "Real life" aspect, which is my contention. You have no idea what the 'structures' are or their purpose. Thats part of the fun of fantasy and scifi, sometimes you can just make stuff up. It doesnt have to make sense to our real world environment. Now you can be like "Well I prefer differetn designs and concepts,' but that isnt how the approach is coming across. It is "real life is like this, therefore this fictional species needs to be like this."

But you know what, how about this: Ill leave it be and quit arguing about it. Cause frankly even Im getting a bit weird on fish boob discussion and its obviously going no where. Make them more fish like, take the boobs off, make it like suggested in earlier posts.

s]I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough. You do realize that "vaguely man-shaped monster" is not the same thing as "This boss is literally just a slightly over-sized but otherwise normal woman" right? Like, that IS a difference you can parse? Please tell me it is.[/s]

You know those brick walls are pretty hot. But I would argue that Garuda is not just an oversized woman. Nor is Scylla.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Usually ones with eyeballs and lips, neither of which Ifrit has. Skin instead of exoskeleton, kind of a big plus, and I admit I do tend to prefer men without three-inch-long talon toenails or needle-shaped teeth. Four-foot tall horns jutting from a hairless head usually doesn't do it for me either, but maybe my standards are just too high...

I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough. You do realize that "vaguely man-shaped monster" is not the same thing as "This boss is literally just a slightly over-sized but otherwise normal woman" right? Like, that IS a difference you can parse? Please tell me it is.

Garuda has feathers covering her body, Echidna is half insect, Shiva would freeze your lips like a metal pole if you kissed her, Scathach has black eyes. All somewhat petty but so is 'oh he does not have lips so he can't be pretty, oh he has talons so he can't be pretty, oh his skin is rock coloured he can't be attractive'- half the female bosses have talons or horns or are part animal. There's a selection of near naked women, of fully clothed women, of near naked men, of fully clothed men- in general, they're all attractive because that's generally the style of SE- they make very attractive females and males, with the occassional Vauthry, FFIX's queen, or cuchulainn thrown in. If the addition of talons, feathers, fangs, horns, demonic eyes, etc... makes a male not look male to you, but does nothing to change a female's beauty I think you're creating a scenario in which SE could never win.

Omega, Kefka, Estinian, Gaius, Alphinaud, Thancred- between the highly muscular eikons and many of the other males you have a pretty wide variety of male body types- so you have naked men, well dressed men, you have muscular men, you have pretty men, you have dashing rogues. The majority of the men are good looking in this game, whether they're the classical muscular version of handsome or the more anime style pretty version. Do they meet your standard of beauty? No idea, and SE can't know that either- what they can do is provide variety, which they do.

I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough.

Now I take from your judgmental snippets at the end of your posts you keep throwing my way that you're not actually looking for a discussion but an excuse to insult me. If that's seriously what you're looking for- a chance to judge what others find attractive, that's kind of sad but by all means go for it.