The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

[sarehptar]

Maybe it'll be an aphrodisiac used by the nobles of Eulmore, a delicacy.

[VirusOnline]

c a v i a r , anyone ?

Back on topic though. Daddy Titan is not attractive in that form in my opinion. He never will have the appeal comparable to HW Ysayle Shiva (the real OG amirite) transition when she slams her goddamn heals into my guts. I mean Titan just slams his fists together to signal angr mode and is generally meant to encapsulate the feeling of rock.

Emo Ifrit ? Literally didn't even know he was naked until it's just now pointed out. He just looks like a humanoid demon. If anyone's played SMT Digital Devil Saga, Ifrit looks like a dark version of Serph's demonic form. If his design was meant to have any sexual appeal it's been lost on me.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I just... have so many questions about your definition of "attractive male." So. many. questions.

I'm not necessarily talking my definition, but the widespread one. Muscular, tall, broad shoulders, a somewhat triangular shape, limited to no fat, strong jaw, generally angular features and an overall neat appearance which often means things like groomed hair/body/facial hair (as opposed to uneven hair, neck beards, etc...). Now, personally yes I'd consider such a male attractive too- but that's not an uncommon thing, and it's a form that is considered attractive through numerous eras.

The softer, curvier females are also a fairly long lasting view of female beauty. We also do have the more modern, anime handsome boys- like your Omega, Kefka, Alphinaud- in this game too.

What sort of men do you find attractive?

[sarehptar]

I'm not necessarily talking my definition, but the widespread one. Muscular, tall, broad shoulders, a somewhat triangular shape, limited to no fat, strong jaw, generally angular features and an overall neat appearance which often means things like groomed hair/body/facial hair (as opposed to uneven hair, neck beards, etc...). Now, personally yes I'd consider such a male attractive too- but that's not an uncommon thing, and it's a form that is considered attractive through numerous eras.

The softer, curvier females are also a fairly long lasting view of female beauty. We also do have the more modern, anime handsome boys- like your Omega, Kefka, Alphinaud- in this game too.

What sort of men do you find attractive?

Usually ones with eyeballs and lips, neither of which Ifrit has. Skin instead of exoskeleton, kind of a big plus, and I admit I do tend to prefer men without three-inch-long talon toenails or needle-shaped teeth. Four-foot tall horns jutting from a hairless head usually doesn't do it for me either, but maybe my standards are just too high...

I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough. You do realize that "vaguely man-shaped monster" is not the same thing as "This boss is literally just a slightly over-sized but otherwise normal woman" right? Like, that IS a difference you can parse? Please tell me it is.

[Melichoir]

Wasn't there literally a study done where they asked female participants to rate male bodies, and they assumed the most bulky, powerful body would be the highest rated but then the highest rated ended up being the one who looked generally fit but also significantly less imposing?

First, It was that study (or another study done along similar lines) that noted that depending on what stage in life the woman was, the answer changed.

Second, I said Strength, Ruggedness, Power and Physique, but I wasnt specific enough I guess. My bad. Obviously at its extreme, you get Mr. Universe, which yes according to studies, women generally werent a fan of it. But this is like saying a woman with long ass legs, Triple G Breasts, and super narrow waste and wide hips is more desirable than..I dunno, Natalie Portman's figure. Anything put to the extreme is gonna taper off. The ideal male form is going to be along what I said. Masculine, built to look like they are strong, typical male 'v' torso. The nuances change.However, you are beginning to venture into the territory of exaggeration and concept.

There is such a huge difference between "the classical ideal male has muscles" and "the classical ideal man is a guy so jacked he looks like he eats nothing but protein powder and drinks nothing but his own gym sweat." Male characters who are swollen beyond all reasonable limits aren't designed to be attractive to female viewers; they're power fantasy figures for male viewers.

How do you define what is attractive and what isnt? Do you speak on behalf of all female viewers. What about gay viewers? Even then, is the male power fantasy always the same for everyone. To look super jacked? There are a lot of males who dont find their power fantasy to be Mr. Universe. Strong yes, but not a rippling mess of muscle. Some do, some dont. It varies. In fact it's not always about muscle mass. Then using this logic about 'attractiveness', why isnt Shiva a female power fantasy? Not all power fantasies are about being muscled. Theyre about ' the power dynamic', and shiva has plenty of it. Are we gonna suggest that most women would rather have Matoya's body over Shivas? That if given the choice of an insert, a female viewer isnt going to choose the attractive female character vs ugly or plain one? Or are we going to suggest that females dont have power fantasies, or that the female power fantasy is identical to the male power fantasy.

The 'male power fantasy concept' is often an extremely narrow and inconsistent concept. That female characters only exist for the male gaze, and male characters are for male inserts completely ignores the varieties of peoples preferences.

(Someone link that Hugh Jackman on a men's magazine vs. Hugh Jackman on a women's magazine post, I'm too lazy.) I agree with your point that most women wouldn't find a very effeminate male character as attractive (although the millions of K-pop stans around the globe might beg to differ), but let's not create a false dichotomy that suggests the only two possible male figures are "ripped as fuck Byakko" at one end and "looks like a girl" at the other.

It isnt my attempt to say "Every guy has to be jacked or theyre a girl look-alike." Of course theres a range between, but classically speaking, the ideal male figure for women viewers who want that is going to have fitness attached to it. People will take Hugh Jackman over a limp noodle skinny guy generally. Not always, but generally. This is much the same why people would take, lets say, scarlett johansson over a frumpy over weight woman. People dont aspire to be ugly, typically.

In between those two is the far-more-common "yeah he works out, but he also doesn't look like he could crush my head between his bulging pecs, oh and look he has a nice face too" male image that I'd wager is far, far closer to the stereotypical "attractive male" image for average women. I mean... give random women on the street a picture of Byakko and then a picture of Thancred and then ask them which one qualifies as "attractive" and we all know what the answer will be. Take a picture of Eden's Ifrit around to a crowd of women on the street and I'm pretty sure 3/4s of them wouldn't even be able to identify it as male, let alone sexy.

I agree broadly but youre not being totally fair in your comparison. Take a picture of Minfillia and a picture of Garuda and ask men who they think qualifies as attractive. We also live in a weeb community, to be blunt. A lot of people here think Yshtola is hot AF, but to my non weeby friends, shes wierd looking. So some of this is gonna be preference. Also, I tend to be in more of the thought process people will probably identify Eden Ifrit as male, much like they would with Eden Titan, or Eden Shiva as being Female, etc. Theres gonna be some quick hands people will see as male archetypes or female archetypes (beyond boobs)

I'm sure there are plenty of monster fuckers playing this game, and your post did just force me to admit that some people in this world find Kefka attractive, but trying to act like Byakko, Kefka, and Neo Ex-Death are remotely close to "stereotypically attractive male" in comparison to how closely Shiva, Sophia, the Ruby Princess, and many other female bosses align to "stereotypically attractive female" is really, really silly.

Theres a wierd notion that a lot of hte female bosses are just hot ladies, but some of them are freaky as hell. I would want to spend a night with Tsukuyomi, as an example. Or Garuda. If were gonna take about conventional attractiveness that is more middle road, then that will eliminate a ton of female bosses as well. You may still get more female then male, but I suspect the number differential is gonna be between a few.

"I don't want to see any more bosses like Omega-M" is a totally fair opinion a person can have, but "There are plenty of attractive male figures in this game already; just look at Raktapaksa!" is utter nonsense.

I dont mind more bosses looking like Omega M. Thats fine. But I do take exception that this is some how a hyper skewed view of bosses - That Titan isnt attractive to anyone but somehow everyone really wants to get up into Garuda. I'll run with that concept if we are going to argue that men have lower standards on what to spend a night with, which I think isnt fair.

So are you for covering up the female bosses or just against male bosses showing any skin? Don't shift the goal post here; there will always be people complaining about fanservice designs, male or female, but that has nothing to do with those who merely want to see a better balance in the amount of fanservice aimed at female versus male players when it comes to boss design.

Im neither for or against either. I want consistency and clarity in what is being requested - Are we looking for more bosses to wear more revealing outfits, that are more conventionally handsome, aka a Male Shiva Equivalent. Or do we go the opposite direction and cut otu the 'fanservicy' female bosses. Make all bosses indecipherable from being male or female. I dont care either way - Im more thinking about down teh road issues. Where someone screeches "Women are being objectified!" male gaze nonsense, but completely ignore that you have an equivilant on the male side - something I see from time to time in these debates. Either we fan service this up and we all agree "Yeah more fanservice, screw it! Lets all just bask in the hotness" or we all say "Nah, lets get this a bit more covered up and neutral."

Breasts are literally designed to produce and feed milk to young. Even taking into account simian aspects like legs and arms, what would an egg-laying species where the mothers do not rear the young need breasts for? Like, from a strictly scientific perspective here, is there some alternate function to the fish boobies that would validate them being there?)

Fictional species that lays eggs has structures that appear like breasts, doesnt mean they are milk providing breasts.

You are relying so heavily on the "Real life" aspect, which is my contention. You have no idea what the 'structures' are or their purpose. Thats part of the fun of fantasy and scifi, sometimes you can just make stuff up. It doesnt have to make sense to our real world environment. Now you can be like "Well I prefer differetn designs and concepts,' but that isnt how the approach is coming across. It is "real life is like this, therefore this fictional species needs to be like this."

But you know what, how about this: Ill leave it be and quit arguing about it. Cause frankly even Im getting a bit weird on fish boob discussion and its obviously going no where. Make them more fish like, take the boobs off, make it like suggested in earlier posts.

s]I'm starting to worry that some of you might find a brick wall attractive if you stood next to it long enough. You do realize that "vaguely man-shaped monster" is not the same thing as "This boss is literally just a slightly over-sized but otherwise normal woman" right? Like, that IS a difference you can parse? Please tell me it is.[/s]

You know those brick walls are pretty hot. But I would argue that Garuda is not just an oversized woman. Nor is Scylla.

[RyuSaarva]

Her over all design is good, but the breasts are just confusing. I don't think It was even a "these are boobies" mistake since she doesn't wear some kind of fish bra to cover up her fish nipples that feed her fish babies. I think those were there cause she's fat, and that's how we are used to distributing fat on bipedal bodies, even though it's really only a simian thing to place fat deposits directly on the mammaries/over the pectorials. She really shouldn't've had them.

And taking away the breasts wouldn't make her not a female. She has explicitly the role of mother for her people. She uses feminine pronouns. Story and context makes her a woman. Ifrit or Bismark doesn't need to have a full beard to be referred to as a male so why would non-human female creatures need human secondary sex characteristics when the male ones don't?


(also Dulia is adorable and I love her, but she iiiis partially using the lalafel body and rig so it's not wholy new)




https://www.pcgamer.com/multiple-ubi...e-allegations/

well yes any female can make any stories these days and then the twitter weirdos will spam emails to the boss of that company and then that person will get fired, it's called a cancel culture.

[sarehptar]

You know those brick walls are pretty hot. But I would argue that Garuda is not just an oversized woman. Nor is Scylla.

Your post is too long to quote it all, nor do I want to bother, but you make a point of saying that "at the extremes attraction tapers off" and then use examples that definitely fall on the extreme (Eden's Ifrit, Titan) to claim that there are existing attractive male bosses.

You are undercutting your own argument that attractiveness varies by person and thus cannot be narrowed to a stereotypical image by flat-out stating that "The ideal male form is going to be along what I said. Masculine, built to look like they are strong, typical male 'v' torso." If I don't get to define "attractive male" because I don't speak for everyone, then you also do not get to define the ideal male image and argue that Titan, Kefka, and Ifrit fit it.

And your tangent about Shiva being a female power fantasy is bizarre. Who said anything about Shiva not being a standard female power fantasy? Where did I remotely suggest that female fans wouldn't want to identify with her? Matoya??? What even are you talking about??? I haven't said anywhere that I care about there being sexy female bosses--only that there are not enough sexy male bosses to even things out.

You've got a bug up your butt about objectification and male gaze and you're putting words into this debate and my post that were not there in the slightest.

The presence of outliers Garuda (who, by the way, is a bird with boobs) and Scylla does not undermine the fact that Shiva, Ryne!Shiva, Lakshmi, Sophia, Ruby Princess, new dungeon girl, Suzaku, and Tsukuyomi (who just has bunny ears and half her body painted, I'm not sure what your problem with her is) represent a collection of bosses that are literally just giant pretty women who do not look distinctly monstrous, met on the other side only by Innocence and Omega-M.

You can smokescreen all you want with "Raktapaksa has stereotypically attractive male features" and "Attractiveness varies" but trust me, it doesn't vary enough to make the imbalance here equal.

Fictional species that lays eggs has structures that appear like breasts, doesnt mean they are milk providing breasts.

I am actually genuinely curious as to the reasons these fictional egg-laying species have breast-like structures if they're not to provide milk. Can you name them?

[Theodric]

Well, as a guy who is into guys...I wouldn't consider Omega-M to be particularly attractive. He's far too androgynous/feminine for my liking. So I wouldn't consider him to be the male equivalent of the likes of Sophia and Lakshmi.

A boss along the lines of Hien wearing nothing but a loincloth, however...

That would be the equivalent for me, at least. Or perhaps a big, bulky Garlean in armour like Vaserega's from Granblue Fantasy that strategically shows off portions of a chiseled torso.

[Lauront]

c a v i a r , anyone ?

Back on topic though. Daddy Titan is not attractive in that form in my opinion. He never will have the appeal comparable to HW Ysayle Shiva (the real OG amirite) transition when she slams her goddamn heals into my guts. I mean Titan just slams his fists together to signal angr mode and is generally meant to encapsulate the feeling of rock.

Emo Ifrit ? Literally didn't even know he was naked until it's just now pointed out. He just looks like a humanoid demon. If anyone's played SMT Digital Devil Saga, Ifrit looks like a dark version of Serph's demonic form. If his design was meant to have any sexual appeal it's been lost on me.

What about Byakko and Seiryu? Zurvan also gets an attractive face. Even if the rest of him is monstrous... the same applies to the likes of Echidna and Calosfisteri.

[VirusOnline]

What about Byakko and Seiryu? Zurvan also gets an attractive face. Even if the rest of him is monstrous... the same applies to the likes of Echidna and Calosfisteri.

Fair question. To answer you Byakko and Seiryu would be my type.

Byakko's weird arm kills the mood and his neuteredness just makes my eyes roll and not with pleasure. And it's a shame because Byakko is handsome.
Seiryu is if I could refer to Theodric's comment, androgynous to a point that it favors femininity over masculinity and therefore I find little attractive were I to be seeking masculine traits.

I would be much more impressed by a boss which errs to the side of FFXV's translation of Ifrit. Now that is hmm.

edit : personally I would never consider Zurvan sexually appealing in his character design. The analytical part of me sees him only as an appeal to his nature rather than an appeal out of gender.