"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Kanjien]

This thread has turned into the "Be nice!" scene from Roadhouse vs. "I am elite and you should all bow down to me and thank me for gracing you with my opinion on your play".

[JohnSpawnVFX]

There's maybe 10 people who actively participate in these discussions. Roughly 3 are just claiming you should try to help casual players in private if you're going to, because doing it in public is rude, and roughly 6-7 of you are saying "I don't care if I'm rude because blah blah tryhard bs!"

So yea, just a typically small community of not so casual players having the same discussions that happen on every MMO board.

There's much more than 10 people actively participating on this thread on this thread alone. Those 3 are using a false excuse to coddle bad gameplay at best, and covering their own incompetence/laziness (or a mix of both) at worst, and the roughly 6-7 are just calling it out and advocating for a paradigm where everyone is much better off, and no one has to carry or be a burden to anyone else.

[Skivvy]

I don't think agreeing on something makes anyone part of any "collection" apart from the one defined by the mutual agreement.

Of the people who I've agreed with in this thread alone I'm sure we aren't all playing at the same levels or holding all the same opinions, that doesn't mean we all still can't agree that the mindset of advice being harassment is detrimental and nonsensical.

If you think it's petty to come to a community that is advertised as overwhelmingly casual and being pleasantly surprised to find reasonable people who aren't militantly trying to enforce their playstyle then you go right ahead and do you. I remain happy that I've come across some logic here where I expected none.

The first part of my comment was aimed at statements like "you're even outnumbered on the hugbox that is the OF", pointing out the minimal 'likes' their comments get, or how 'since you're leaning on the support of those who back you, you're admitting that your argument has no merit'. There have been more, but those are what sparked my comment.

The last line of my comment was aimed at the blanket statements and absolutes that are popping up, things like "6-7 people have the complete same mindset", "knew they'd agree on every little thing you say", etc. I really, really dislike when people use absolutes and blanket statements and it's a quick way to annoy me greatly. :X

I will admit, my post was a bit hasty and quite vague, so apologies for that. But yes, there have been a few comments on both sides of this discussion that seem to be trying to use the the support (or lack of) to show how right they are, when it really doesn't prove much of anything at all. It's quite possible to be correct when you have minimal support, and it's also quite possible to be correct when you have overwhelming support.

As far as being pleased with finding support in a thread, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I enjoy knowing someone else may have my back and that I'm not crazy (well, still could be, but it's reassuring at least..). Just don't try and use that as ammo.

There's maybe 10 people who actively participate in these discussions. Roughly 3 are just claiming you should try to help casual players in private if you're going to, because doing it in public is rude, and roughly 6-7 of you are saying "I don't care if I'm rude because blah blah tryhard bs!"

So yea, just a typically small community of not so casual players having the same discussions that happen on every MMO board.

Geezus, Goji. Learn how to have a proper discussion with people you disagree with. Comments like that do not help you at all.

[Goji1639]

There's much more than 10 people actively participating on this thread on this thread alone. Those 3 are using a false excuse to coddle bad gameplay at best, and covering their own incompetence/laziness (or a mix of both) at worst, and the roughly 6-7 are just calling it out and advocating for a paradigm where everyone is much better off, and no one has to carry or be a burden to anyone else.

So, being polite is unacceptable because it coddles bad gameplay? That is a difficult position to defend; I hope your support system here is ready to help you with that.

Or you could just give advice in private; which is the socially responsible method that most people use, because it isn't as confrontational as picking someone apart in public is. If you choose to be rude people will respond to you as if you're being rude.

Geezus, Goji. Learn how to have a proper discussion with people you disagree with. Comments like that do not help you at all.

I've made my position here clear multiple times. Now that responses to my points are "people agree with me, so ha!" how serious and proper do you expect me to remain? This isn't a real discussion anymore.

[Billythepancake]

My opinion. I didn't get better until someone called me out. Did it sting? Yes, not going to pretend it didn't, but before someone essentially told me I was trash I had no reason to change, and yes, he did it with 6 other people in the party.

A couple of weeks later I found the same player and I thanked him for what he did. But I'm also a big boy that can take criticism and run with it. If you're such a child you can't handle someone telling you the truth maybe you shouldn't be in public places.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

So, being polite is unacceptable because it coddles bad gameplay? That is a difficult position to defend; I hope your support system here is ready to help you with that.

Or you could just give advice in private; which is the socially responsible method that most people use, because it isn't as confrontational as picking someone apart in public is. If you choose to be rude people will respond to you as if you're being rude.

I'd question your support system, if you take any advice in public as a personal attack. Sounds like you can't handle criticism well.

You're coddling bad gameplay because giving advice in private to anyone who you come across is not only much more unwieldly but also completely unnecessary, so you'd rather forgo advicing in general.

[Goji1639]

I'd question your support system, if you take any advice in public as a personal attack. Sounds like you can't handle criticism well.

You're coddling bad gameplay because giving advice in private to anyone who you come across is not only much more unwieldly but also completely unnecessary, so you'd rather forgo advicing in general.

Calling someone out in public has always been interpreted as personal. Blame society for developing that psychological tick if you don't like it, but the fact still remains that it's a dick move.

I'm not even saying you can't do it, but understand that it's rude and that being rude to someone means they're less likely to be receptive of your advice.

[Kanjien]

Here is the thing about feedback, it is a necessary and useful method to improve results in any endeavor IF done correctly. If you want the results you need to make sure your feedback will be received positively or you will just put the other person immediately on the defensive and the feedback will be lost. If all you are trying to do is show how great you are then that will be an acceptable result for you. If you are really committed to improving the performance of the other person then you will make sure your feedback is given in the right way. Also you will be open to feedback yourself...such as methods to make your feedback more positive and successful. I know I am not a very good player. I have limited time to play but I still try to read things that will help me improve my game. I am open to feedback in game and I don't wear my feelings on my shoulder or get defensive. Not everyone is put together that way. I also know that no matter the quality of the feedback I get, I will never be as good as some of you are...it is physically impossible now, but I will try to be as good as I can be. Both sides in this argument are trying to get to the same result, an enjoyable experience while playing the game, the difference is small between the two but sometimes we make it seem like a cavernous canyon that no one can cross. Myself included, so I apologize for my divisive rhetoric earlier, it was uncalled for. I am grumpy...sometimes I can't help myself.

[Laesha]

snip.

I suspect this has a lot to do with how people view giving and receiving game advice.

When I started raiding in coil1 I was a terribad whitemage. Med2-spamming-sit-and-waiting-never-dps-ing-panic-healing bad whitemage. But for me, because i was part of a group that wanted me there I worked very hard to learn on my own. I asked for pointers from my group because I cared about them and wanted to contribute as much as I could to their success and our success as a group. No one called me 'trash', despite the fact that I was very bad at the game. Sometimes we would discuss strategies and people would request i do certain things differently. All through ARR this was my experience with raiding. I experienced most of my growth during my time raiding, rather than the other way around. No one was upset that my feet started off slower than others. No one singled me out for messing up a mechanic (since everyone messes up sometimes). My static eventually broke up when we came against A3S (like so many), and that was largely because of one person who felt the need to add his 2 cents after every single wipe, despite us reaching enrage. It became insufferable for all but maybe 1 other person in the group. later when I did deltascape with 2 different groups, it was similar to my original group. Some feet were faster than others when learning the dance, and that was understood and acceptable. During that time i also learned a lot. But never have i ever been in a situation where someone saying "you are bad, do this" legitimately helped me learn.

Similarly, my bestfriend is usually very aggressive in her advice giving. She is always the one who i see get kicked. Being polite and putting someone in the mindset of wanting to learn is not molly-coddling or tip-toe'ing. It's very efficient. It allows you to coach someone even when other people in the group may not want you to say anything, because right there they say "yes." And then anyone who things otherwise has no ground to stand on, no position to defend as to why you should not offer good advice.

I have no issue admitting my bias toward that point, and that my experience is limited to me. Just some observations.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Calling someone out in public has always been interpreted as personal.

For the last f'ing time, giving someone advice =/= calling someone out.