"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[SturmChurro]

Eh, messaging someone isn't harassment. If they tell you to stop messaging them you probably should, though.

And like I said, a roulette isn't a classroom. If you want to try to be a teacher you do it on your time, not mine or anyone else's.

Calling someone out in front of a group of strangers isn't a context that's likely to be well received. If you want to be a good teacher you shouldn't start your relationship with your prospective student by embarrassing them in a public setting.

I'm certain some of these players could and would cry harassment to a GM if you track them down after game and start offering unsolicited advice.

If somebody is holding back the group to a noticeable extent they should be embarrassed, maybe they would respect others time at that point. They should be embarrassed about their own performance without anybody having to say anything.

Also, for that matter, who even actually cares if they get embarrassed? I can tell you right now, I wouldn't be nice at all to these players if SE didn't police the game like they do. I can definitely say you would hate to see my chat off site, or game about these kind of subjects. Either way, personally, I don't actually offer advice in the first place, so you don't have to worry about me. I threw out my mentor crown a long time ago, though I never offered advice when I had it either.

Define "going fine." Also, wonder how much of "going fine" will be tolerated even by the worst of the bunch.

FOR REAL! What is "going fine"? At what point is it not fine, other than the blatantly obvious? Like 30 minute runs are fine? Or? What are some of the parameters for a problem?

[Goji1639]

Define "going fine." Also, wonder how much of "going fine" will be tolerated even by the worst of the bunch.

For me going fine is steady, consistent progress that the majority of the group is content with. I've been on plenty of runs where the healer didn't DPS, for example, and the dungeon was still cleared in a perfectly reasonable amount of time. If someone had tried to call out the healer in an instance like that, I would view it as picking a fight for no reason, and would start up a vote kick of my own.

[Vahlnir]

Honestly, reading this thread it can feel as if the situation is clearly and very chaotic out there, with people who do badly or acting rude showing up on every instances of dungeons, raids, etc... Well, I can't claim that I have played this game for thousand of hours or years like some of you surely have done, but I've played for a while right now and occasions where people were performing really badly, acting rudely, etc, were very very very rare. Not often enough for me to get upset about it when it happens--hey, I sometimes do mistakes too. In fact I've seen more occasions people saying <I'm sorry> or <I apologize> when they screw up.

Yeah. I never claimed that they were common. They just happen more than some seem to think. I wouldn't call them the norm though by any means. When it DOES happen, however, it can be rather frustrating to see. I do feel, however, that these interactions are why I don't see many people giving advice anymore outside of boss fight mechanics. It just isn't worth the hassle.

[Goji1639]

I'm certain some of these players could and would cry harassment to a GM if you track them down after game and start offering unsolicited advice.

If somebody is holding back the group to a noticeable extent they should be embarrassed, maybe they would respect others time at that point. They should be embarrassed about their own performance without anybody having to say anything.

Also, for that matter, who even actually cares if they get embarrassed? I can tell you right now, I wouldn't be nice at all to these players if SE didn't police the game like they do. I can definitely say you would hate to see my chat off site, or game about these kind of subjects. Either way, personally, I don't actually offer advice in the first place, so you don't have to worry about me. I threw out my mentor crown a long time ago, though I never offered advice when I had it either.

lol, I'm guessing that what you're saying is more or less how all of these "advice" givers feel. They'll blah blah about it being for the good of the game and wanting to "help" people, but at the end they just want to humiliate other players in public for being lazy or ignorant. It's just selfish spite, and I don't need it interfering with a perfectly tenable run.

[Goji1639]

My suggestion to you - turn of the chat while you are in a duty. You won't see anything.
You say that it's not fine to bring (let's call it) a constructive criticism in front of strangers, but you think it's completely fine to let them all down? Because "why should you care"?

Having chat on is important for other stuff, and 2 people arguing, because 1 got called out in front of everyone and didn't like it, means very little progress being made. When the run grinds to a halt over petty nonsense that's when I start caring.

[SturmChurro]

lol, I'm guessing that what you're saying is more or less how all of these "advice" givers feel. They'll blah blah about it being for the good of the game and wanting to "help" people, but at the end they just want to humiliate other players in public for being lazy or ignorant. It's just selfish spite, and I don't need it interfering with a perfectly tenable run.

I'm just very blunt. Like I said, I don't give advice, rather I should be honest, I'll rarely give advice if they ask for it specifically, or the run is going really badly. I'm actually fairly cordial if talked to in-game. However, I come from PvP games, so it's just the kind of chat that flows over. "toxic", I think it's entirely acceptable banter, and people nowadays should grow a spine - and same can be said for players who cannnot take "advice".

Oh, yes, a lot of the players giving "advice" (why I say "advice") are just being passive-aggressive, though I am told there are a few supposed players that actually do it with good intentions. Still, I think they are well within their rights if someone is refusing to do aoes, or something of the like, like just generally holding back the entire group. Some players should even be kicked. A lot of these players have no respect for the other players in their parties, they would rather play the game in their own way, the objective wrong way, as if other player's time doesn't matter.

[Daibunnie]

For me going fine is steady, consistent progress that the majority of the group is content with. I've been on plenty of runs where the healer didn't DPS, for example, and the dungeon was still cleared in a perfectly reasonable amount of time.

Healing through current normal content while dpsing is doable even for the average player. So why should the other 3 players be subjugated to perform while the curebot gets to slack off? Including curebots, why shouldn't ice mages, freestlye sams, north positional mnks, undergeared tanks, etc, be criticized when they can't even get the basics of their job correct?

Can imagine that people will only stop tolerating subpar performance when they release something like The Burn again.

[LaughingBanana]

Yeah. I never claimed that they were common. They just happen more than some seem to think. I wouldn't call them the norm though by any means. When it DOES happen, however, it can be rather frustrating to see. I do feel, however, that these interactions are why I don't see many people giving advice anymore outside of boss fight mechanics. It just isn't worth the hassle.

For me personally, since it only happens ever so rarely, I just don't find it worth it to get so upset about it. So it happens every once in a while, very rarely. Is it really worth it to lose your hair over it? Not for me, personally. Just carry through and move on to the next thing. Like I said, I don't pretend that I am this perfect player who always do things smooth every time I play, I am sure my mistakes cause discomfort to others too, so why should I be angry when other makes mistakes too?

And besides, people screwing up mixes things up, making things more exciting rather than business as usual, hahah.

[Gula]

You see. This is the best reason to get into raiding and savage: You can cap your tomes through them instead of dungeons. Never have to deal with any of this mess.

Incorrect use of that image. Should be: You'll never waste time if you never do content.

[RyuSaarva]

Your party member's performance isn't important to you? Wonder if it would be important if they started adding dps checks and enrages to normal dungeon bosses.

we already have those.