"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Xtrasweettea]

I disagree with nearly everything you've said here. You can leave, kick, or attempt to continue.

No, I can still can give advice to help everyone meet the assumptions within the contract and future contracts.

Is it better to kick a person failing at a mechanic you can spend 3 minutes explaining (or just copy pasting from a wiki)?

It is better to leave than to say "You can save MP by not spamming Cure 1 to try to get that Cure 2 proc. You have a 85% chance to not proc that."

I may have costed a handful of minutes explaining mechanics or mana saving tips, but I just gave that person accumulated netted time in the future from those tips.

Now, if they or a GCBTW Whiteknight tells me to stop or don't bother at all to try to execute what I have explained, then I can choose to execute my contract termination rights and leave or try to salvage my bottom line and kick the person. Invoices will not get paid, and time is cumulatively lost among everyone within that contract.

I have all of those rights as a contract holder and a player within that DR event. You, someone who I do not have a contract with, has no say.

[Laesha]

No, I can still can give advice to help everyone meet the assumptions within the contract and future contracts.

Is it better to kick a person failing at a mechanic you can spend 3 minutes explaining (or just copy pasting from a wiki)?

It is better to leave than to say "You can save MP by not spamming Cure 1 to try to get that Cure 2 proc. You have a 85% chance to not proc that."

I may have costed a handful of minutes explaining mechanics or mana saving tips, but I just gave that person accumulated netted time in the future from those tips.

Now, if they or a GCBTW Whiteknight tells me to stop or don't bother at all to try to execute what I have explained, then I can choose to execute my contract termination rights and leave or try to salvage my bottom line and kick the person. Invoices will not get paid, and time is cumulatively lost among everyone within that contract.

I have all of those rights as a contract holder and a player within that DR event. You, someone who I do not have a contract with, has no say.

Cool story. I have no sympathy when you receive a negative response. Also, this obviously fits below "continue attempting to complete the duty"

edit: i feel like a lot of people in this thread ignore that in so many instances of mechanical difficulty, people do indeed ask for tips (i.e. "i'm new, any tips?" "What do i do here" "anything to watch out for") That is solicited advice. Knock yourselves out. My experience when it comes to people giving unsolicited advice has never been positive.

[Nestama]

My experience when it comes to people giving unsolicited advice has never been positive.

Please explain, or give examples on why they weren't positive. Were they rude or just blunt when giving advice? were they rude after a certain point?

[Laesha]

Please explain, or give examples on why they weren't positive. Were they rude or just blunt when giving advice? were they rude after a certain point?

Most of the ones i see are terse, obnoxious, often macro'ed with sounds.

USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>
USE HOLY <se.1>

"L2P, regen is your best heal"

Telling a dancer not do aoe on groups of 2 or use their aoe procs on single targets. (aoe is for 3 or more)

I see lots of people who feel required to speak up and "advise" healers who are "not doing enough dps", while I'm busy burying them.

One in particular that I remember having that was directed at myself-

I joined an expert rou as Ast. The group kept a good pace, so I did my best to deal as much dps as possible, minimize overhealing, etc. Naturally this caused the group HP to hover around 70%. No one died, and I felt very good about my performance. After the first boss to the end of the dungeon I was called lazy, bad, worthless. I was told I wasn't healing nearly enough, that my job was to keep people topped off. etc. I rolled my eyes and finished the dungeon. Apparently me ignoring their advice wasn't enough to warrant a kick, just abuse.

I've been told that @ level 80, fire 2 should be a big part of my blm aoe rotation. I've been told that I should never use TBN on drk.

Some of that advice was delivered kindly, other abusively. All bad. And as I think i mentioned, lots of advisors i've seen tend to be rather terrible players. I can honestly remember only 2 mentors (with the crown) that i found impressive and would have been interested in advice from based on their play. (I remember them specifically because they are so rare. One was in a 50/60 run of the Anti-tower during Stormblood. He was one of the best bards i've ever seen. And the other was a very good warrior that I don't recall using a single GCD heal on in Grand Cosmos)

Edit - other ones that i think of are healers who rescue me into death, then bitch when i tell them I didn't need a rescue and the incoming damage was fully intended and fully survivable. (specifics that come to mind are yanking me away from EV4 Shiva's center holy when i'm on tank and can easily survive with some cooldowns. In Rabanastre during Stormblood, i would often take hits with Riddle of Earth to keep my stacks and then heal myself. The phase switch from Garuda to Ifrit on EV2.) All of which basically reinforce my idea that they are just being pretentious by thinking they know better than I do. If i want help, i will ask for it (or more likely seek it out myself)

[Vahlnir]

Most of the ones i see are terse, obnoxious, often macro'ed with sounds.

Some of that advice was delivered kindly, other abusively. All bad. And as I think i mentioned, lots of advisors i've seen tend to be rather terrible players. I can honestly remember only 2 mentors (with the crown) that i found impressive and would have been interested in advice from based on their play. (I remember them specifically because they are so rare. One was in a 50/60 run of the Anti-tower during Stormblood. He was one of the best bards i've ever seen. And the other was a very good warrior that I don't recall using a single GCD heal on in Grand Cosmos)

Aside from that Grand Cosmos run (which people were clearly being jerks while you were doing just fine) some of what you have listed isn't BAD advice, but the delivery wasn't good. AoE on 2 enemies is a waste of time and resources. Regen is also very useful. If someone had to resort to spamming a macro for Holy usage (or felt the need to make one in the first place) then I think the issue was that particular healer at the time and others who don't use Holy, when they probably should be. Again, not bad advice, but it could have been worded better instead of coming from a place of frustration...or spamming chat with an obnoxious macro. In raids, healers are tasked with minimizing damage as well as keeping people upright if they can. So yeah, they will rescue you to avoid unnecessary damage. Just because you CAN survive something doesn't always mean it's a good idea. To me, that is being somewhat bullheaded for no reason. They're doing their jobs. As a tank, you should be looking to minimize your own incoming damage wherever possible. Why take more when you could have taken less?

[Laesha]

Aside from that Grand Cosmos run (which people were clearly being jerks while you were doing just fine) some of what you have listed isn't BAD advice, but the delivery wasn't good. AoE on 2 enemies is a waste of time and resources.

Lol - dancer aoe on 2 is higher potency than single target. And aoe procs are higher potency than single target 1 2, and is only not worth using if you're about to lose your timer on a single target proc

and yes, obviously I know regen and holy are good abilities, but regen is not always the "best" heal. Why regen 3 when you can put up a medica. And no, if a healer doesn't want to spam the shit out of holy because they aren't comfortable, I will absolutely vote along side them to kick that spammer. And as I pointed out before, i'm of the opinion that if someone uses poor wording, it is also their responsibility and compounds the rudeness of their "advice"

[Vahlnir]

Lol - dancer aoe on 2 is higher potency than single target.

and yes, obviously I know regen and holy are good abilities, but regen is not always the "best" heal. Why regen 3 when you can put up a medica. And no, if a healer doesn't want to spam the shit out of holy because they aren't comfortable, I will absolutely vote along side them to kick that spammer. And as I pointed out before, i'm of the opinion that if someone uses poor wording, it is also their responsibility and compounds the rudeness of their "advice"

If a healer isn't comfortable then obviously they should focus on healing more than dps. But Holy is in their toolkit for a reason.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Lol - dancer aoe on 2 is higher potency than single target. And aoe procs are higher potency than single target 1 2, and is only not worth using if you're about to lose your timer on a single target proc

and yes, obviously I know regen and holy are good abilities, but regen is not always the "best" heal. Why regen 3 when you can put up a medica. And no, if a healer doesn't want to spam the shit out of holy because they aren't comfortable, I will absolutely vote along side them to kick that spammer. And as I pointed out before, i'm of the opinion that if someone uses poor wording, it is also their responsibility and compounds the rudeness of their "advice"

No one gets comfortable doing something without doing it to reach comfort. If someone says they aren't going to DPS and heal as a healer because they aren't comfortable then I'm simply going to suggest to them that they can't get comfortable doing it without doing it. I would much rather wipe once because the healer is stepping out of their comfort zone and trying to improve than simply have an issue-less, slow run because the healer is being a healbot doing zero damage.

[HyoMinPark]

Telling a dancer not do aoe on groups of 2 or use their aoe procs on single targets. (aoe is for 3 or more)

Unlikely that you’ll bother to read this since this post is a few days old and I have no idea if you’re even still in this thread—but I’m reading through all these posts and wanted to comment. This advice is actually incorrect. And I don’t know if you’re the one who gave it or someone else—or if your comment in parentheses belongs to you. If it does, then you are actually wrong, too.

DNC AOE is a gain at 2 mobs. Windmill is 150 potency per enemy with no falloff, and Bladeshower is 200 combo potency to all enemies with no falloff. At 2 enemies, that’s 300 potency + 400 potency for a total of 700 potency for just 2 mobs, which is greater than your Cascade > Fountain combo that only sits at 250 + 300 potency for 550 potency against 1 mob. And AOE procs, when proc’d by Flourish, are supposed to be used on single targets because they’re free damage. You haven’t wasted GCDs procing them with your AOE combo; they were given to you via Flourish for free. Especially since Rising Windmill is 300 potency—same as Reverse Cascade—and Bloodshower is 400 potency—same as Fountainfall. At 3 or more mobs, you actually let your single target Flourish procs fall off because AOE beats them.

The general rule of thumb is that AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs, but there are exceptions. BRD is another that is a gain at 2+ mobs for Quick Nock over Burst Shot and Rain of Death over Bloodletter.

I will also say that I’ve played this game for going on 5 years soon, and I’ve literally never encountered a Holy macro like the one you’ve posted there. And I’ve done an obscene amount of dungeons in DF with all kinds of randoms. That seems very much like an outlier. The only thing I can think of that came close to that was HW WAR Berserk macros that would literally count down from 20 seconds to 1 second about their incoming Pacification. But even those weren’t the majority of WARs I encountered.



Giving advice in and of itself is not rude nor pretentious, especially if given in a kind, respectful manner. What is rude is the constant rebuttals of “you don’t pay my sub” or “I play how I want”. That, and how apparent it is that one would have such little respect for those who are only trying to help (or otherwise blatantly carrying them) or for the time of other people. I get that human beings are inherently selfish, but still.

Anyways, tangent over. Back to reading through this.

[Vahlnir]

Unlikely that you’ll bother to read this since this post is a few days old and I have no idea if you’re even still in this thread—but I’m reading through all these posts and wanted to comment. This advice is actually incorrect. And I don’t know if you’re the one who gave it or someone else—or if your comment in parentheses belongs to you. If it does, then you are actually wrong, too.

DNC AOE is a gain at 2 mobs. Windmill is 150 potency per enemy with no falloff, and Bladeshower is 200 combo potency to all enemies with no falloff. At 2 enemies, that’s 300 potency + 400 potency, which is greater than your Cascade > Fountain combo that only sits at 300 potency. And AOE procs, when proc’d by Flourish, are supposed to be used on single targets because they’re free damage. You haven’t wasted GCDs procing them with your AOE combo; they were given to you via Flourish for free. Especially since Rising Windmill is 300 potency—same as Reverse Cascade—and Bloodshower is 400 potency—same as Fountainfall. At 3 or more mobs, you actually let your single target Flourish procs fall off because AOE beats them.

The general rule of thumb is that AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs, but there are exceptions. BRD is another that is a gain at 2+ mobs for Quick Nock over Burst Shot and Rain of Death over Bloodletter.

I'm not knowledgeable enough with DNC to know the inner workings. It would appear that I have responded with bad advice and assuming that the way it worked for most classes was the way it worked for all of them. Clearly, that is incorrect. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I do feel, however, that ignoring ALL advice and just assuming it's bad is a poor way to handle things though, like the person you responded to has.