"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Laesha]

In doing so they are helping to propagate such activity and effectively say that it's OK and acceptable to ignore their responsibilities and force others to carry their useless weight.

I think this sentence hits close to my problem. By hoisting your expectations onto them, you are doing the same thing that you are accusing them of doing. You are telling them to carry you through the dungeon faster. You are telling them that they had best match your idea of what is acceptable and good. But the reality is that they are not doing this to you. They are not telling you to play better by not contributing as much themselves. You could do much less and make it more "equal" if you wanted and i doubt they would say anything.

You also talk about helping people. For me, increasing my effort and taking on more is helping. Pushing myself to the very very best that I know how is helping. I do more damage. I make the run that much faster. = more effort. But i can also do less.

But yes, from a gaming standpoint my focus is always inward rather than outward. This is why the only #'s on FFlogs that i care about are my own vs. my own. For me it is about doing the best I can do. As long as the party enables that I do not care. For me this equates to healers keeping people alive, and tanks holding aggro. If they fail to do this it hinders my performance. And in those situations, I find myself more apt to simply leave and try again later.

[Laesha]

This is some next level amount of cringe. Also reeks suspiciously of GCBTW.

Cringe all you want. If advice is not asked for, it is pretentious.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Cringe all you want. If advice is not asked for, it is pretentious.

So if you were to give someone advice along the lines of "hey don't do that, it may kill you" if they don't ask, it's pretentious?


You did say all unsolicited advice is rude...

[Skivvy]

Cringe all you want. If advice is not asked for, it is pretentious.

But it's really not. Trying to help a person out shouldn't be seen as some big negative interaction. Now, people's ideas on how that advice is be given varies wildly, and some people don't realize how rude they may come off, but giving unsolicited advice is not inherently pretentious.

[Blackheart]

So if you were to give someone advice along the lines of "hey don't do that, it may kill you" if they don't ask, it's pretentious?


You did say all unsolicited advice is rude...

i wouldn't say rude per-say, would very well depend on how you word things. Maybe along the lines of unwanted for some/most, even if good advice is given, wording can have a major impact on how other view it.

[Miracle_Diva]

Cringe all you want. If advice is not asked for, it is pretentious.

"Hey don't touch that hot stove" - said I to myself inside my head while looking at some random dude who's about to get hurt. "Nah, I shouldn't tell him, it's pretentious".

Some people are just to shy to ask for help or talk to strangers.

[Vahlnir]

I think this sentence hits close to my problem. By hoisting your expectations onto them, you are doing the same thing that you are accusing them of doing.

But yes, from a gaming standpoint my focus is always inward rather than outward. This is why the only #'s on FFlogs that i care about are my own vs. my own. For me it is about doing the best I can do. As long as the party enables that I do not care. For me this equates to healers keeping people alive, and tanks holding aggro. If they fail to do this it hinders my performance. And in those situations, I find myself more apt to simply leave and try again later.

It's all about the delivery and the perception of said delivery. Most people when they give advice aren't forcing anything on anyone other than a "hey, if you do this, you might do more damage". It's a suggestion and nothing more. What people do with that suggestion is entirely up to them, but people need to stop perceiving advice as a personal attack or as something that is forced on them. Granted, if it's bad enough, that's what the vote to kick option is for, but that is usually a last resort.

Some people are jerks even when they give advice, and those people I typically ignore. But the vast majority are not like that and only want to help.

And yeah, I do think it's best to focus on your own performance most of all. When you know you're doing everything right then you don't have much to worry about. It provides some peace of mind even when things get ugly in a party setting.

[Laesha]

The fact that people conflate mere advice with potentially saving someone from harm is amusing. False equivalency and bad argument, especially since a stranger doing either of those things would have even the remotest effect on you, which is the entire baseline of this argument for telling people what to do (respect my time).

But it's really not. Trying to help a person out shouldn't be seen as some big negative interaction. Now, people's ideas on how that advice is be given varies wildly, and some people don't realize how rude they may come off, but giving unsolicited advice is not inherently pretentious.

Certainly there is something to be gleaned by the observation that the advise giver may not realize they are coming across as particularly rude, tho even if that were the case, the onus for their bad wording still rests squarely on their shoulders. Nevertheless, I simply disagree, and saying it is a "big" negative interaction is a bit melodramatic. At worst it deserves an eyeroll and a dismissal. The vast majority of "advice" i have received on multiplayer games tends to be grossly sub-optimal or come from players that have no business advising anyone. I think this is part of the problem as well.

Additionally, I think it's important for the advisor to ask why it is so important to them that their words be taken seriously. Why does it upset you that no one cares what you have to say? I think with unsolicited advice, it is more about the advisor than it is about the one presumably being advised.

Edit: I will say, among friends and an audience you know, there is more room for this. You will know if people respect or value your opinion or not. Among strangers tho, I would never do this unless (as i stated b4) it impedes my performance.

[Miracle_Diva]

Additionally, I think it's important for the advisor to ask why it is so important to them that their words be taken seriously. Why does it upset you that no one cares what you have to say? I think with unsolicited advice, it is more about the advisor than it is about the one presumably being advised.

You are forgetting that it's an MMO (a massively multiplayer online game) and you have to group up with other players if you want to proceed further in the content/story/w.e.
It is simply disrespectful to other party members when the last guy just half afk breezing through content while a lot of people carry him on their shoulders. And a lot of other people think that it's fiiiiiine. Not everyone agrees with this. But there're still those who think it's fine. And then we have players who still, even on level 80, don't know what stack marker is.
The question is, what is the problem with giving advice to someone in the first place? If someone already knows stuff, they will simply say that. Helping out others in things they don't understand (in this game ofc) will help everyone clear content with less problems/wipes and will help that guy who learned something new in the future.
Of course, no one says that you should just shoot out advises left and right, but come on - why simple *uwu don't stand there, you'll die* or *use Y skill instead of X, it'll help you heal/tank/dps better* is met with *you don't pay my sub, I play how I want*?
And some players just don't know that their rotation(or put anything in this place) can be improved with thing that some stranger could tell them.

[Xtrasweettea]

[snipped for length]

No, there is actually a social contract.

• The contract is signed upon selecting the DF instance you want to go into (regardless if you use PF first or not)
• Your role dictates the minimal for your Statement of Work. There are assumptions that go into the Statement of Work that can help go above minimal if those assumptions are met (ie: Assuming Healer can handle big pulls if DPS aoe, tanks use Cooldowns, Healer is experienced enough, etc.).
• General Assumptions are lined up, based on the DF you registered for. Trials DR will have different assumptions than 50/60/70 DR.
• Service Levels are present, with penalties, and exceptions.
• Contract comes with Cancel of Service clauses which anyone can execute (Kick or Withdraw).
• Contract is concluded by either the DF instance is complete or time runs out. Either way, there is a Bottom Line that is paid out.

This is a contract, with invoices and everything.

Yes, invoices. There’s actually bills that are owed. The invoices come from each player to each other player within the same group. What is that invoice billing for? Well, its Time. You may think that they do not owe me my time, but they do. I also owe them their time.

By the way, that is what the “Bottom Line” is. Its is the revenue of Time remaining. So, if a DR event is 90 minutes, and it took the group 30 minutes to complete it, each person is netted with 60 minutes.

Time is important to almost everyone here. Most of us want the biggest net we can get from our DF events. That means the group needs to meet as many assumptions and service levels as possible through executing our duties outlined within our Statement of Works.

This also means that you are responsible for executing your part of the contract. How much effort you put in will award you a bigger bottom line when the contract is concluded.

This is why when we see free-style DPS, curebot healers, and single pull tanks; we want to try to assist them in fixing that. We want the whole group to get as much time netted as possible. We want them to meet as many assumptions as possible for the current contract and future contracts. You may view that as unsolicited advice, the advisor is being rude and imposing a play-style onto the advised person, etc. How that is handled it could be those things. It is not, though most of the time. It is people trying to help other people be able to get a bigger bottom line of time when the DF event is over.

If you do not feel like having a bigger net of time at the end of a DF event is a worth it to you, that’s fine. Just remember, that the other members of your party may not have that same perspective and may want a bigger net of time… even those within the PF/FC group you have set up.