"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Skivvy]

If you play healer and somehow die I don't think you'll like the red mage/summoner not rezzing you because they are dps and they're only here to do damage.
Why Astro has cards if healers were just about throwing some cure spell.

As long as tanks are holding aggro and using their cds can they afk while dps kill the boss/trash?

I think this really sums it up. This topic does tend to devolve often into "SHOULD HEALERS DPS" specifically, but if any role/job has a skill in their own personal kit that is going to be beneficial for the group as a whole, they should try to use if it they can.

[LittleImp]

If you don’t want sub optimal runs from time to time then don’t use duty finder.

Sub-optimal is too vague. Some forms of "Sub-optimal" play are more harmful or selfish than other forms. Pressing random skills out of sequence as a BLM and causing pulls to take nearly twice as long vs. not holding Xenoglossy for burst windows. Both can be considered sub-optimal, but one is much more harmful to the group.

As a community it's critical that we have a reasonable expectation of player input, otherwise people will simply take advantage of the lax standards.

You have no right to dictate how others play when you have all the tools to go find other people to play with that have the same goals or mindset as you.

People also have no right to burden other players to a completely unreasonable extent. In fact, from a moral standpoint I would argue that intentionally not trying is much worse than trying to give advice or asking someone to contribute more effort to a team activity.

Though based on how people that complain about stuff like run times in normal content act towards people I understand how making friends is harder than Savage mode for them.

You're trying to argue a kind of moral stance while putting petty insults in your post. It kind of undermines the legitimacy of what you're trying to say.

If you want a community of hardcore try harder 24/7

Using basic parts of your kit isn't try-harding. Most of these arguments seem predicated on a strawman that people are expecting you to use high-level optimizations in normal content. This is not the case; Most of these posts are in reference to players doing things like failing to AoE, using uncombo'd attacks or failing to contribute DPS as a healer.

Outside of Alliance raids even the “worst” groups only take an additional 5-6 mins.

I spam mentor roulette when I have time to kill, and this is just wrong. 30-45 minute in-progress dungeons aren't as uncommon as you'd think. They're often the result of 3-4 players who refuse to put effort into playing the game being match-made into one party. In the absence of people willing to put in the effort to carry them, stuff can get messy FAST. There are plenty of cases where cascading problems can balloon a dungeon to almost twice its normal duration.

Stand in fire dps higher seems to be the new mantra.

The game has a heavily DPS oriented meta. This isn't a new thing really. You can blame the devs for that, don't blame players for adapting and seeking out optimized ways to play the game.

[StriderShinryu]

Everyone is forgetting one key thing. You don’t have to use duty finder. Go make an FC and find players that want to play the way you do. If you don’t want sub optimal runs from time to time then don’t use duty finder. There are plenty of people that will be glad to join up with you and bang out content with you. You have no right to dictate how others play when you have all the tools to go find other people to play with that have the same goals or mindset as you. Though based on how people that complain about stuff like run times in normal content act towards people I understand how making friends is harder than Savage mode for them. If you want a community of hardcore try harder 24/7 then join up with them. Or better yet just go play WoW and see how much fun that community is. Outside of Alliance raids even the “worst” groups only take an additional 5-6 mins. Most wipes are from people not doing mechanics while staring at their DOD meter anyways. Stand in fire dps higher seems to be the new mantra.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Does it suck when you're put into a party with players that don't play the way you want? Yeah. Is it annoying when you are put into a party with a healer that doesn't DPS at all or a DPS that doesn't AoE? Yeah.
But when you make the choice to use a tool that puts you into a random group of other players in potentially a random piece of content that is what you're asking for at least on some level. Especially when the general FF14 community that this random group of players is pulled from is, at least if you ask here on the forums, so terrible. You can say that the overall level of play in FF14 should be higher but, frankly, that's not what the game itself requires or demands, for better or worse.

[Kamome-chan]

Everyone is forgetting one key thing. You don’t have to use duty finder..

Use the Duty Finder to enter Sastasha.

Use the Duty Finder to enter the Tam-Tara Deepcroft.

Yep Duty finder is totally optional in this game.

I don't know why it is as hard as not randomly opening the Jack-in-the-Box, when you need to find the 2 untrapped ones, to understand nobody cares about players being not the greatest player. We don't want lazy players who get credit for doing nothing with no intention to put any effort for the party.

[Lucy_Pyre]

even the “worst” groups only take an additional 5-6 mins.

Considering I had *multiple* dungeon runs last night alone that took twice, or nearly twice as long, as they should have (we're talking 28-35 minute dungeon runs as opposed to the 12-15 they should be) because of how bad my party members were, this statement is just utterly wrong. A WHM casting zero damage spells, a NIN doing almost nothing but using Throwing Dagger, uncombo'd Hakke, & uncombo'd Gust Slash, and a DNC whose rotation apparently consisted of nothing but his standard 1-2 combo and using Standard Step every 2 minutes.

[RyuSaarva]

Most of those 30 min in prog parties are caused by some weirdos who instantly leave when the party is not doing max pulls or they wipe once and he does not bother to explain what to do to not die and then the rest wait a long time for a replacement and the duty goes fine without that ragequitter.

[RyuSaarva]

Considering I had *multiple* dungeon runs last night alone that took twice, or nearly twice as long, as they should have (we're talking 28-35 minute dungeon runs as opposed to the 12-15 they should be) because of how bad my party members were, this statement is just utterly wrong. A WHM casting zero damage spells, a NIN doing almost nothing but using Throwing Dagger, uncombo'd Hakke, & uncombo'd Gust Slash, and a DNC whose rotation apparently consisted of nothing but his standard 1-2 combo and using Standard Step every 2 minutes.

I have read this same story like 7 times already on, so basically you got a bad party once only and that was too much for you.

[Vahlnir]

Giving Advice
vs.
Intentionally putting forward minimum effort in team-oriented content.

How did we wind up here as community? It's so tiresome.
I've never seen a game community with values as warped as this one. People are lucky there are people trying to help them get better in the first place.

Yeah. I don't really see this much in WoW, mainly because there is basically no tolerance for it whatsoever. People must either "git gud" or at least adequate or they are told to get out. And there is far less help there from random people. We have it good here, and I just wish people would stop being so sensitive. People aren't giving advice to attack others, they are 99% of the time just trying to help, granted it benefits everyone when advice is taken into consideration.

[SturmChurro]

Yeah. I don't really see this much in WoW, mainly because there is basically no tolerance for it whatsoever. People must either "git gud" or at least adequate or they are told to get out. And there is far less help there from random people. We have it good here, and I just wish people would stop being so sensitive. People aren't giving advice to attack others, they are 99% of the time just trying to help, granted it benefits everyone when advice is taken into consideration.

Never had this when I played WoW. People complimented my healing in PvP. A great community.

[Lucy_Pyre]

I have read this same story like 7 times already on, so basically you got a bad party once only and that was too much for you.

I guess you can't read then because the fourth word in my comment was 'multiple'. The specific instance remarked on was simply an example of the absolute worst one of the night. But please, continue showing that you can't even read properly.