"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Veis_Alveare]

Nobody WANTS other players slowing them down. It's just something you accept as a possibility when your team is random.

Someone slowing me down by being a little lazy just bothers me way less than someone slowing me down because they're a whiney control freak who likes to start fights.



So vote kick or leave if the groups sucks that hard. Both are more productive then starting a pissy little fight in chat.

The topic at the moment is about how we should all be totally outraged on principle if a healer isn't DPSing. My take is as long as the run is moving along smoothly I don't care, and if someone tries to start a fight with the healer in that context I'll just vote kick the whiner.

Why do you equate suggesting people suck less to starting a fight, much less liking to start a fight?

Do you genuinely think saying "WHM, holy stuns and does damage, it'll help on big pulls" is trying to start a fight? If so you're further gone than maybe anyone thought, if not then stop equating the two.

Virtually no one approves of attacking random sprouts the minute they aren't performing perfectly, that's just a strawman you've created. If you believe that's the same as making helpful suggestions you should maybe get an English tutor or something since you clearly don't understand how words work.

[Goji1639]

Why do you equate suggesting people suck less to starting a fight, much less liking to start a fight?

Do you genuinely think saying "WHM, holy stuns and does damage, it'll help on big pulls" is trying to start a fight? If so you're further gone than maybe anyone thought, if not then stop equating the two.

Virtually no one approves of attacking random sprouts the minute they aren't performing perfectly, that's just a strawman you've created. If you believe that's the same as making helpful suggestions you should maybe get an English tutor or something since you clearly don't understand how words work.

I've made clear in that "other" thread that I'm fine with politely worded, constructive suggestions. It seems like the suggestion was unwelcome in his example, in which case, like I said, he just should've vote kicked or left if he felt it wasn't worth it.

My problem is the idea that you have to teach them some kind of lesson because "blah blah the principle." All I'm saying is if the inclination to start sniping, whining or getting overly pushy ever enters your head, drop it, and if your innate bossiness won't allow you to drop it then just find them after the run like a good little stalker. I'm sick of listening to it.

[Jazmyn]

Healers are intended to do DPS in this game; period, point blank. Even in savage the actual amount of healing required isn't huge. This all just means that healers have ample amount of time to put out DPS, and healer DPS isn't nearly as insignificant as you seem to think. Moreover, the only healers who cause wipes because they DPS too much are, frankly, bad. Healers have such a massive array of oGCD heals with which to keep the entire party alive, all while pumping out DPS at the same time. It's really a very simple matter.

So glad you decided you know the game better than Yoshi P. Here is his answer
A.) First of all, we do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. However we know a lot of the cutting edge players enjoy this aspect about the job and that those progressing in the raids early on use it help clear the fights. We decided to make it so that the idea was more approachable and less punishing so that if a player wants to try it, they aren’t sacrificing all of their healing capabilities to do so like they were with the old Cleric Stance. We didn’t like seeing healers doing entire dungeons in Cleric Stance, especially if they forget to switch back and heal!

That being said, and I want you to really reinforce this to your viewers, I firmly believe it shouldn’t be mandatory and we do NOT have the expectation of them to DPS.

[Lucy_Pyre]

So glad you decided you know the game better than Yoshi P. Here is his answer
A.) First of all, we do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. However we know a lot of the cutting edge players enjoy this aspect about the job and that those progressing in the raids early on use it help clear the fights. We decided to make it so that the idea was more approachable and less punishing so that if a player wants to try it, they aren’t sacrificing all of their healing capabilities to do so like they were with the old Cleric Stance. We didn’t like seeing healers doing entire dungeons in Cleric Stance, especially if they forget to switch back and heal!

That being said, and I want you to really reinforce this to your viewers, I firmly believe it shouldn’t be mandatory and we do NOT have the expectation of them to DPS.

Whatever the devs have *said* is entirely irrelevant. What matters is the design of the game's content, and the design of the game's content enforces the reality that healers are intended to do DPS, because if you don't then you're going to spend about 70-80% of your time in a fight doing literally nothing but standing AFK.

[Jazmyn]

Whatever the devs have *said* is entirely irrelevant. What matters is the design of the game's content, and the design of the game's content enforces the reality that healers are intended to do DPS, because if you don't then you're going to spend about 70-80% of your time in a fight doing literally nothing but standing AFK.

Healer dps is not factored in when Square Enix designs raids. I am not saying you shouldn't dps but only if you are comfortable doing it. Maybe you should just run with premades if everyone upsets you so much.

[sauc]

Healer dps is definitely factored in, world firsts are always on the wire with both healers doing as much damage as they can. If you're talking normal and alliance raids sure but they can be cleared with half the party afk

[Lucy_Pyre]

Healer dps is not factored in when Square Enix designs raids. I am not saying you shouldn't dps but only if you are comfortable doing it. Maybe you should just run with premades if everyone upsets you so much.

Healer DPS is absolutely factored in and if you think it isn’t you’ve never set foot in any content beyond normal mode.

[Shalan]

Healer dps is not factored in when Square Enix designs raids. I am not saying you shouldn't dps but only if you are comfortable doing it. Maybe you should just run with premades if everyone upsets you so much.

It might not have been when that statement was made years ago, but it most definitely is now.
Besides, the game itself directly encourages healers to be DPSing through both the Hall of the Novice and the CNJ quests.

We absolutely should expect healers to DPS. It's not fair to the party that one role gets to spend upwards of 80% of the dungeon doing nothing because heals aren't needed. They're nothing but a leech at that point. If we don't make it clear they should be DPSing as a community they'll never feel the need to become comfortable with doing so in the first place, in which case they'll never DPS and be little more than a drag on the party.

[Kamome-chan]

"Go premade"
"Just leave"

Why should we go premade or hit the 30 minutes debuff because players holding the party with selfish motives?

"Then just kick them"

Well we would but you can avoid being kicked by letting the loot timer running.

[Lucy_Pyre]

"Go premade"
"Just leave"

Why should we go premade or hit the 30 minutes debuff because players holding the party with selfish motives?

Because apparently it's okay for people to make a run take two times as long by playing like a monkey is at the keyboard, but someone daring to try to give them advice on how to play better is toxic elitism.