"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Kamome-chan]

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

If you play healer and somehow die I don't think you'll like the red mage/summoner not rezzing you because they are dps and they're only here to do damage.
Why Astro has cards if healers were just about throwing some cure spell.

As long as tanks are holding aggro and using their cds can they afk while dps kill the boss/trash?

[Lucy_Pyre]

"Standing there doing nothing". Hmm, so they're not even healing either? And a healer necessarily doesn't have to DPS. They're more focused on keeping everyone alive rather than DPS'ing. The only time a healer should DPS is if the healer is confident in the tank and party members not dying. There was a thread on this concerning healers dps'ing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Healer-Damage

My reply was - "I don't mind it when healers do damage. The main point of this all is when these "Healer's" think they are a DPS. They spend more time trying to DPS than healing which results in people dying which then causes a wipe. Iv'e seen it happen, healer's get into DPS'ing to much and don't heal and people die. Which causes of course, longer runs."

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

Healers are intended to do DPS in this game; period, point blank. Even in savage the actual amount of healing required isn't huge. This all just means that healers have ample amount of time to put out DPS, and healer DPS isn't nearly as insignificant as you seem to think. Moreover, the only healers who cause wipes because they DPS too much are, frankly, bad. Healers have such a massive array of oGCD heals with which to keep the entire party alive, all while pumping out DPS at the same time. It's really a very simple matter.

[SturmChurro]

"Standing there doing nothing". Hmm, so they're not even healing either? And a healer necessarily doesn't have to DPS. They're more focused on keeping everyone alive rather than DPS'ing. The only time a healer should DPS is if the healer is confident in the tank and party members not dying. There was a thread on this concerning healers dps'ing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Healer-Damage

My reply was - "I don't mind it when healers do damage. The main point of this all is when these "Healer's" think they are a DPS. They spend more time trying to DPS than healing which results in people dying which then causes a wipe. Iv'e seen it happen, healer's get into DPS'ing to much and don't heal and people die. Which causes of course, longer runs."

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

I agree. I see the tanks health bar drop 2% that's a cure 2 from me. Can't have the tank or the party dying on me! Heck, if the tank drops 5% that's a medica.

[SaitoHikari]

Shucks. All the pages of complaining from the last thread will have to be repeated in this one because mods couldn't handle the flood of reports due to (and my point still stands from the last one) everyone being on the same page of:

I was surprised when I came back and couldn't find the 50+ page thread. Aside from the arguments, the premise of the thread itself was actually good.

It's depressing how a couple of trolls could get an entire thread nuked just by starting an argument that veers too close into too damn personal territory.

[Veis_Alveare]

"Standing there doing nothing". Hmm, so they're not even healing either? And a healer necessarily doesn't have to DPS. They're more focused on keeping everyone alive rather than DPS'ing. The only time a healer should DPS is if the healer is confident in the tank and party members not dying. There was a thread on this concerning healers dps'ing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Healer-Damage

My reply was - "I don't mind it when healers do damage. The main point of this all is when these "Healer's" think they are a DPS. They spend more time trying to DPS than healing which results in people dying which then causes a wipe. Iv'e seen it happen, healer's get into DPS'ing to much and don't heal and people die. Which causes of course, longer runs."

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

You should be spending more time on dps than on healing unless you're in a very rare and niche situation that requires the inverse.

Old Cleric Stance is gone, we have no barrier to being able to instantly toss out a heal now as we're dpsing.

There is no excuse for standing around doing what amounts to nothing. If you're going to spend your time spamming overheals you may as well be popping bottles of champagne and random emotes instead to keep the animations varied.

If everyone played this badly people would have been stuck on Shinryu normal until they could buy crafted level 80 gear. The only reason anyone gets to be that bad is because they're continously carried by other players. Eorzea is not a welfare state, pick up your own slack don't expect others to do your work for you.

[TheRealQuah]

I apologize for the snark; there are a handful of people here I altercate with regularly who deserve it, but you're probably not one of them.

Is being intentionally lazy a little rude? Sure. Honestly, if you vote kicked and the group agreed they don't want to put up with it then that's fine. Don't pick a fight in chat like most people do, though; it's just annoying and it wastes time.

Haha. You're advocating for people playing badly because all it does it adds a few minutes to the run, but your complaining that people typing in chat wastes time. Make your mind up.

BTW being intentionally lazy is way more than "a little rude". There is definitively a right way and a wrong way to play a job in this ONLINE MULTIPLAYER game and if you're playing it wrong then you need to be informed so you are not a detriment to other players. That is a consequence of playing a multiplayer game, and if you don't like it then go and play something solo.

I don't have either of the meta weapons for the endgame PvP in Destiny 2, and honestly, I am quite bad at it. So guess what, I don't queue for it and ruin another 2 players sessions.

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

Just what? A healer can quite easily do as much DPS as the other 3 classes in a dungeon environment and will improve your run time between 25%-30%. Or they could even double the speed of the run if they get matched with some of the DPS players that have commented in this thread.

[Goji1639]

Haha. You're advocating for people playing badly because all it does it adds a few minutes to the run, but your complaining that people typing in chat wastes time. Make your mind up.

BTW being intentionally lazy is way more than "a little rude". There is definitively a right way and a wrong way to play a job in this ONLINE MULTIPLAYER game and if you're playing it wrong then you need to be informed so you are not a detriment to other players. That is a consequence of playing a multiplayer game, and if you don't like it then go and play something solo.

I don't have either of the meta weapons for the endgame PvP in Destiny 2, and honestly, I am quite bad at it. So guess what, I don't queue for it and ruin another 2 players sessions.

Yes, starting an argument in chat wastes time. Making a pissy little comment isn't going to make the other person play better, it's just going to pick a fight. So, if you want to throw a little tantrum and start sniping at someone do it on your own time. Track them down and spend the rest of your day making sure they realize exactly how much they've hurt you, but do it AFTER the run so I don't have to hear it.

As for me, I don't care. If the healer is only up to, or only feels like healing then whatever; keep everyone alive and the run will still be piss easy. It's still probably faster than replacing him. I don't need a fight and rage quitting just because for some reason you think a very easy video game is a good place to lecture people about effort and principles.

[Veis_Alveare]

Track them down and spend the rest of your day making sure they realize exactly how much they've hurt you, but do it AFTER the run so I don't have to hear it.

Oh boy, seems like someone cares about the speed of their run and doesn't want other players slowing things down or playing how they want.

How elitist!

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

Here, let me paint you a picture of this run I just got out of from Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) as I farm out poetics, and I think that will illustrate the point that many of us have been making quite clearly.

Party is as follows:

Me - WAR
DPS 1 - NIN
DPS 2 - DNC
Healer - WHM

Things start looking sour immediately, as I do the first double pull before the log blocks your path from continuing. I instantly notice that, by the time I put up Storm's Eye and go into Inner Release, all the WHM is doing is spamming Cure 1. So I pop Vengeance as I hadn't used any CD since I was expecting instant Holy spam. The pull takes over 90 seconds to kill because not only is the WHm using zero damage spells, but I notice that my NIN is completely freestyling it; using Throwing Dagger, uncombo'd Hakke, uncombo'd Gust Slash, etc, all at complete random with no rhyme or reason to it. Once the pull finally (agonizingly slowly) dies I say this to the WHM;

"WHM you should spam Holy because it helps things die faster."

WHM says nothing, but as I collect the adds of the next double pull, he starts using it. However, whether out of spite of being given advice or simply not thinking more than three seconds ahead, the WHM in this pull did literally nothing *but* use Holy, which led to me dying and him saying that "that's why I don't use it", to which I quickly informed him that my death wasn't caused by Holy, it was caused by him *only* using Holy. But, whatever, we get to the first boss. This took almost five minutes to kill, and during the fight I was paying very close attention to my party to see what was going on. NIN not only continuing his full on freestyle SAM impression, but also not so much as using Trick Attack a single time or even using Ninjutsu other than occasionally popping Ten Chi Jen to only use Fuma Shuriken and then immediately cancel it, the DNC only using Standard Step about once every two minutes and never even once using Technical Step (but seeing how the NIN was playing it's not like the buffs the DNC was giving him were going to matter anyways), and the WHM spending (at a rough guess) about 80% of the time that he wasn't overhealing me standing idle doing nothing.

As you can probably imagine, this made the rune abysmally slow. So slow, that not only was I forced to single pull because the healer could barely keep me alive in double pulls and it wasn't worth the risk, but I even at one point said to the DNC "you should give me partner, NIN isn't using Trick or any proper skills" and was met with only pure silence. The run totaled out to be just shy of 30 minutes long, for a dungeon that should take 12-15 minutes. So, no, it isn't just a matter of "oh you're just elitists who don't want to wait an extra five minutes to finish a dungeon". But rather, it's a case of some of us believe that there are unacceptable lows for player performance, and this run illustrates exactly that.

[Goji1639]

Oh boy, seems like someone cares about the speed of their run and doesn't want other players slowing things down or playing how they want.

How elitist!

Nobody WANTS other players slowing them down. It's just something you accept as a possibility when your team is random.

Someone slowing me down by being a little lazy just bothers me way less than someone slowing me down because they're a whiney control freak who likes to start fights.

snip.

So vote kick or leave if the groups sucks that hard. Both are more productive then starting a pissy little fight in chat.

The topic at the moment is about how we should all be totally outraged on principle if a healer isn't DPSing. My take is as long as the run is moving along smoothly I don't care, and if someone tries to start a fight with the healer in that context I'll just vote kick the whiner.